Johannes Landman graduated from varsity and landed that job. But as time went by, he came to the realisation that he wanted more.
In a Ruda Landman interview with a difference, the son explains to his mother what led to his decision to give up his job in television production, and how he managed to equip himself for an entirely different career.
Watch the full interview here:
Ruda previously interviewed former Protea skipper Graeme Smith on his career as cricket captain, and prior to that she met up with shock jock Gareth Cliff on his career change from 5FM to CliffCentral.
The full transcript of the interview with Johannes:
Ruda: Welcome Johannes, in a completely different relationship to the one we usually have – Johannes is my son…
Johannes: Thank you for having me
Ruda: That is a pleasure. And this is all about change… so we’re going to talk about the huge change that you made exactly a year ago now.
Johannes: Ja. One year anniversary, absolutely.
Ruda: So when you were little, what did you dream about being.
Johannes: Goodness! Not a personal financial advisor, I’m afraid! I suppose I dreamt about telling stories and I still do, in many ways.
Ruda: Telling stories, like what?
Johannes: I couldn’t tell you. I could tell you the story, when I was little, but I couldn’t tell you in what context I was planning on telling them. They just manifested in my mind. So I suppose the most obvious channel to go into was something visual, because the stories were always quite visual. In your capacity as my mother you know the story, but for the rest of the world… I think the path from there was, “what is the best way to tell these stories”. Understand narrative, understand script. So I studied drama and went very far in that field and then I had all that kind of theoretical knowledge and practical knowledge of narrative and acting, but I didn’t know how to handle a camera or switch on a light. So then I went into production, which is where you learn all those things above and beyond making coffee and running around…
Ruda: Television production?
Johannes: Television production, yes. Specifically television commercials.
Ruda: Did you like the television environment?
Johannes: I was really afraid you were going to ask me that question! [laughs] The short answer is I love the environment and being on set is fun and energising and exhilarating… and I mean, you know. You get to see really amazing things and meet really cool people. But as a career, for perhaps the father of a family – I know you want grandchildren – I just didn’t see it working for me, unfortunately. So being on set was great, but it was everything that came with it, that wasn’t.
Ruda: What was it? The insecurity? Did you not see a financial future? What was it that you didn’t like?
Johannes: I… [sighs]
Ruda: Or what did you want that you didn’t find in that environment?
Johannes: I just looked at people who had made it to the kind of position that I would want to be in in 20 or 30 years’ time – the absolute top of the food chain. And I thought to myself “you aren’t as happy, or – forgive me for being frank – as wealthy as I would like to be. And I don’t think your quality of life is where I would like mine to be”. And for that reason I had to start looking at something else. Because if that’s the end of your trajectory, and you don’t set it right now, the five-angle degree is going to throw you out completely in 30 years.
Ruda: It’s interesting that you looked ahead – you didn’t only say what is today about… but you looked ahead and you used the lives of other people as an indicator. Would you advise people to do that? If you’re still feeling uncomfortable in your environment… What boxes do you tick before you make a change?
Johannes: There are two things I would consider, just off the bat. I used to have a poster against my bedroom wall, which read “The universe makes way for those who know where they are going”. So know where you’re going. If all you do is wake up every morning and think about Friday or payday or your holiday, you’re screwed. You need a long term view. Because then you will find the universe will make way for you, or you will make way through the universe. That’s the one thing. The other thing is the famous Steve Jobs thing. Because that’s quite a long-term view, this whole universe-story. The short-term view is the Steve Jobs thing. If you wake-up enough mornings in a row and you look at yourself in the mirror, and say “do I want to do what I’m going to do today”, and the answer is “no” enough times – change.
Ruda: So how did you decide, a financial adviser is like a 180 degree switch, how did you decide? How did that come up?
Johannes: I was fortunate enough to have really good parents who taught a little boy about budgeting, and about… I mean, my mother gave me money for school shoes once a year, and if I lost them, I would have to buy my own school shoes. That was on me [laughs]. And she gave me money for stationery and money for clothing and if I spent it on computer games and comics, then I didn’t have stationery and didn’t have clothing. So from a young age I understood budgeting, and that then took on a natural kind of progression towards how much money do I need. And that then took on a natural progression towards how much money do I need not to work. I really hate the word “retire”, I think it’s got a lot of stigma and a lot of connotation that we can unpack, but let’s just say independence. Financial freedom. What do you need to be there? These were questions I was asking myself at 18 while sitting on the back porch. So it started there…
Ruda: And you had a conversation with your dad about that.
Johannes: Ja. So there were two. One was… I think I was 15 or something. We were sitting in the Spur, and he asked me – he’s really not a car person, I still have to drag him kicking and screaming to each new car he buys – but he asked me what is the nicest car I could think of. And I named whatever it was, I can’t remember. He took out his pocket calculator and about 30 seconds later he said if I save “x” – I can’t remember the number. Every year, or every month from now, by the time I’m his age I could buy that car. And that was the key to a 15 year old mind, to unlock it. And I just realised…
Ruda: The value of long-term savings.
Johannes: Yes. You know – money can give you stuff!
Ruda: [laughs]
Johannes: And I think that’s all it had to be. The delayed gratification, all the things you learn. So that was the one conversation. The other conversation is while I was 18, sitting on the porch, thinking about financial freedom – although I didn’t know enough to call it that at the time. My dad came home, and I was in tears. I had taken – do you remember those old rolls of fax paper you used to get? That rolled off the little ‘dotjies’ on the side? And I’d written 100 times 1.1 equals about 37 times for about 37 years and worked out how much money I’d have for… in my late 50s. And it wasn’t enough! And I was in absolute tears that I was never going to get out of the rat race! I was never going to be able to not have to work! And he came home and thought it was absolutely hilarious, you know, for obvious reasons. I of course was deeply insulted that I thought it was hilarious. And then he showed me Excel, and obviously you can take your whole 37 reams of fax paper and turn it into one equation. And then I was empowered. And I could start playing. And I kept playing. At varsity – while studying drama – I was working in a bar, earning money, and buying stock, because I was sitting, once a month, or once a year, or whatever, and saying: “If I buy enough of this and it escalates at that and I assume that, can I achieve financial freedom?” So you asked the question earlier why this absolute about face? And it’s a very long series of stories to say I’d always lived both lives – the artist and the financial planner.
Ruda: So how did you prepare? Once you decided this is not where I’m going to stay, okay, alternative is this. Then what? You had nothing! You had matric accounting!
Johannes: Yes I did. I’d like to take a step back, if I may. And say first what made me decide on that change, because we discussed I had a past skill set, but not really how I got to this idea. I drew three circles in the sand – this was also my father’s idea. What am I good at? What do I enjoy doing? What pays well? The way he would phrase it is not what pays well, but “what has a high margin” – what pays well for the energy you put in. And bang! So I think from a change point of view, if you do wake up 21 days in a row and you look in the mirror and you hate what you’re doing, sure. That’s step 1. Now what is step 2? Sit down and draw 3 circles in the sand. And if you can hit the middle point there, it’s obvious. The universe will make way for those who know where they are going, and you know where you are going – go there!
Ruda: And then, on a practical level? What did you do?
Johannes: I had absolutely no idea. So I phoned everyone I knew who was in the industry or knew someone in the industry. And I said can I take you to coffee. I’m looking for a job, I don’t necessarily expect you to give me a job, but you might know someone? And let me sell myself to you.
Ruda: Wait, that was trying to find a job. Before that – what happens then? You go out and acquire the skills that you need?
Johannes: That is absolutely true, sorry. So I did, while I worked in television production, start studying part time. And I did my certificate in financial planning, there are a series of them and I still have to do many more, but I did the basics that you need to get into the industry.
Ruda: So you don’t just ‘sommer’ take the leap. You actually put some things in place.
Johannes: And you try and put them in place parallel to your day job, so that you don’t throw yourself into the void here. So that you’ve got something to step out on to. At the same time, what I would always recommend anyone to do if you want to change your life or not – is you save. So that when you do quit your job, you’re not in an absolute emergency. You’ve got a month or two worth of fat in the budget. My mother – the lady across from me – has what she calls – and it might shock your viewers somewhat – has what she calls a “fuck you fund”…
Ruda: [laughs] Don’t say it out loud like that! I told that story in an interview with Graeme Smith last week! And I actually said because it comes from a friend that we both know – David Nathan – and David always says “every person should have an F-you fund”. I will not use the word quite so easily!
Johannes: [laughs]
Ruda: But that’s exactly it. It gives you that freedom, that you’re not tied.
Johannes: Yes, and when you have that. And you know this – but when you know there are two months worth of expenses, even if it’s leaned down expenses in the bank, I have options. I have the freedom to start looking at other employment, to go for interviews, to tell my current boss… It could be an open-hand gesture or a slightly more visceral one… And to investigate alternatives. There’s an intellectual thing as well as a financial thing. An emotional thing as well as a financial thing. You feel you have freedom. When you feel you have freedom, you make choices. You don’t… you sit in your little corner and hope.
Ruda: But still. What was it like when you woke up on the first of the next month and there is no income? And there’s no job?
Johannes: It scared the living daylights out of me! [laughs] There’s nothing else to be said. It is scary. And then kick in all those old cliche’s of when one door closes another opens, blah di blah di blah. But it’s scary. I think the only way you get through that is in my case to do something about it. Because you’re always going to be scared. Sitting at home on the couch trying to distract yourself, or if you’re going out there and talking to people and having interviews and drinking coffee and putting yourself out there…
Ruda: And you got those interviews by activating a network?
Johannes: That is very true. I was incredibly fortunate in the network I had. We had some family friends in the industry, and I also met a few people – I can’t recall how… While studying and working. So back to that point about parallel preparation – while studying and working, I contacted people. And kind of cold-called and said: “Hi, this is who I am, can I take coffee with you? Take you to coffee?” So I knew people and activated a network. And I was willing to put myself out there and ask.
Ruda: But many people stop after the second or the third “no”?
Johannes: Okay, so whether you’re selling yourself or selling life insurance or whatever the case may be, it’s a numbers game. No means next. Because the law of averages says there are 5% of people, of prospective people out there, want to give you the job and want to give you the opportunity or know someone who can help you. Now, if it’s 5% you’ve got to talk to 20 people to get one. If you talk to 20 people and you don’t get one, the chances are you’re going to get two out of the next 20. So just get up off your hind quarters and talk to people and… it will happen. It has to.
Ruda: There was one guy, who kind of led you on. You thought you had a position, it would have been very good, and then it fell through. How does one work with that?
Johannes: [sighs]
Ruda: You’re young, you’re inexperienced, he was much older, you had respect for him?
Johannes: And it was an ideal position. It was a real disappointment. I suppose my off the bat response is disappointment is like fear. When it happens, you can either do something practical, or not. And what I did was I lined up other options. Kicking and screaming and very unhappy because it was the dream job, but I went and spoke to people and pursued other avenues. And ironically, in retrospect, I’m very, very grateful I didn’t get my “dream job”. Which brings me to perhaps another pointer or another point of advice, which is be careful what you wish for. And when you don’t get it, often you are lucky.
Ruda: That’s another Steve Jobs… not quite that… but he says you can only connect the dots backwards.
Johannes: Yes, exactly.
Ruda: So you may not know where this is going to lead to, you can only see what it meant.
Johannes: [thinks] And to some degree trust… Know where you are going. If the path along the way tends to deviate, just know where you are going and you’ll get there.
Johannes: I spoke to a wonderful doctor in the Eastern Cape recently, and he said to me you must point your heart in the right direction, and then things will happen.
Ruda: So stepping into a brand new environment, did you feel like you were in standard 6 again? Grade 8?
Johannes: About a month ago or 11 months into this brand new environment, one of my mentors said to me I was made to do this. I think he actually said I was born to do this job. So my short answer is “no”. And the reason my answer is no, is because of that parallel preparation. I had shadowed people, I had taken leave from my day job and shadowed people in the industry. I had studied. I had had copious amounts of coffees, lunches and meals with people and I knew exactly what the game was. I knew the dangers, I knew the advantages. So when I stepped into that world that felt felt familiar, of course it felt scary and of course you’re the new kid on the block and all of that – that goes without saying. But I knew exactly what I was in for, but I had set my expectation right. Perhaps that is the key thing. Set your expectation right. And I was lucky – I had.
Ruda: So don’t think it will happen in the first month?
Johannes: Don’t think it will happen in the first month. Don’t think it will be easy. Don’t think it will be what you think it will be, necessarily. My expectation was uncertainty and fear and then I got there and I kind of knew most of what was going on because I prepared and studied and spoken to people. I was lucky, but you make your own luck to a degree…
Ruda: Yes you do. And you’re doing very well! So what’s the secret? Because I think it’s the same with any job? In sales, which is really what you’re doing? Your dad always says it’s the hardest thing to do? So it’s slightly different, but I think the basics are the same?
Johannes: It’s the three circles, I think. My off the bat response. If you’re good at what you do and you do like what you do… the fact that it pays well or has a good margin is almost beside the point, because what is success? It’s not money in the bank. It’s getting up each morning and saying I’m excited to do what I’m doing today. I mean, I sometimes get up, having gone to bed at midnight, getting up six hours later for a 7:00 appointment, you’ve got to put glue in your eyes and look like a neatly suited and tied financial adviser even though you feel tired to the bone, but I still enjoy the work. I’ve got to drag myself to the meeting, but then you get there and you turn on. So it’s the three circles.
Ruda: I think there’s a fourth thing and that is you work very hard. [laughs]
Johannes: [laughs] Yes, but ironically you work hard because you want to. And a large part of that – I’m no expert here – but there are studies out there that say when there is a direct line between remuneration or reward – so it needn’t be financial, it has to be reward. It can also be recognition et cetera, and what you do, you are happy. So if you think of your standard kind of office drone 9-5, you get the same recognition and reward whether you’re there early and stay late, or not. So of course you don’t put in any extra hours, because you’re not incentivised. But when you have a heartfelt connection to what you’re doing, and the more of it you do the better you do, then you sit at the office ’til 11pm.
Ruda: Two of your friends also made dramatic changes in their lives. The one was in marketing and doing very well at 27-ish, and he’s now training to be a musician. Full time. The other one was at the JSE, made very good money, and he and a friend have a start-up which does social media for big companies. So they’ve both gone out on a limb, you to some extent did too… Advice to other people who may be sitting there feeling they would so like to do something else but it’s just too scary…
Johannes: The metaphor which comes to mind is someone asks the dominee… what’s that in English?
Ruda: The priest? The minister?
Johannes: The minister. Someone asks the minister “how do you protect your home”? And he says: “There are angels on my roof and rottweilers in my backyard.” Now I would use the metaphor as follows: Angels on your roof, know where you are going, the universe makes way for you or you make it make way for you. The rottweilers in your backyard… do the legwork. Do the prep. Study what it is you want to know, talk to people who know the industry, set your expectations right, save money for your F-you or a rainy day fund, and then you’re as armed as you could possibly be. And the more of it you do, the less scary it becomes. There’s going to come a point where you’re going to want to step off the boat, into the abyss.
Ruda: Thank you very much and good luck.
Johannes: Thank you very much.
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