Art is long, the ancient Romans used to say; life is short. Proof of this can be found in the abundant statues and frescoes you can still find in Rome, left over from those imperial days, while you’ll battle to find any actual ancient Romans.
In Africa, birthplace of humanity, the evidence of art’s longevity is equally all around us, as much in San rock etchings as in the legacies of dance and music.
For Michelle Constant, broadcaster, social entrepreneur, facilitator of corporate investment and involvement, arts activist and evangelist, art is a constant force, a constant impulse, a constant inspiration.
While she originally dreamed of becoming an actress, and went on to study performance at UCT, Michelle later proved to have a flair for radio that made her a staple of arts journalism in South Africa.
As the recently-outgoing CEO of Business and Arts South Africa (BASA), she was a highly influential advocate of the need to integrate the arts into everyday public life, and her efforts have earned her acclaim and support not just at home, but far afield.
She holds the title of Chevalier des Arts et Lettres from the French government, testimony to her tireless campaigning on behalf of the arts in her home country.
Ever restless and busy in her quest – she describes herself as a “Labrador personality” – Michelle sat down with Ruda to talk about the joys of art, and the art of bringing it to life for all South Africans.
Transcription of Ruda Talks Change with Michelle Constant
Ruda Landman: Hello and welcome to another session of the Change Exchange and my very interesting guest, Michelle Constant, radio and television person and lately, for the last 10 years, CEO of BASA, it’s Business and Arts South Africa.
Michelle Constant: Yes, that’s right. Ja.
RL: Yes. And there’s a change in the offing, but we’ll talk about that later. Welcome.
MC: Thank you. It’s a total delight and honour to be with you.
RL: Good. Michelle, what did you start out thinking you would be?
MC: I started out thinking I was gonna be an actress. I mean at the very tender age of 9 or 8, 7, as many actresses are want to do. And I had a great opportunity to study at UCT where I studied a Bachelor of Arts and Performance Diploma. But I think what happened was, subsequent to that I went travelling, and I started to realize that maybe that wasn’t really what I wanted to do. I’m a very curious person, so there’s so many different things that interest me and you can distract me and send me off on a completely different road just by (snaps fingers) clicking something in the corner. I mean, it’s, I’m very distractible.
[1:15] RL: A Labrador personality. After this and after that.
MC: Ja, I’m a total Labrador personality. All over the place and I’m wagging that tail all the time as well.
RL: So how did you end up in radio?
MC: So, very early on, there was someone at SAFM who I knew, also in the theatre, who suggested that I come and do a small piece for them. And, those days, it was before hip hop had even kind of made its way into South Africa and he said come and do a piece for us. So I chose to do a piece on hip hop, and everybody was like, don’t know what you’re talking about, it was a long time ago. I’m a hundred years old.
RL: And SAFM was a very different animal.
MC: Ja, and SAFM was a completely different animal. And then at the same time I got to know Barney Simon on 5FM and he’s like, oh, you’re obviously very interested in diverse types of music. Ja, I mean I ended up getting onto radio. And I must say it’s, I have a daytime job now, but it’s still my playtime and I really love radio. I particularly love public broadcast; I think commercial radio is a different animal for different types of people but for me the idea of public broadcast and how it works and what it can do to change lives and conversations. It’s fantastic.
[2:22] RL: So talk to us about that. Why do you like radio? What’s the best thing about it?
MC: That you can never ever ever succeed and be perfect. It’s like climbing an Everest where there is no top of the mountain or running a marathon where there’s no finishing line. So, as hard as that sounds, I mean it sounds awful when I put it like that…
RL: Sounds like Sisyphus.
MC: Ja, exactly! But actually, what, that’s an amazing thing because it just means you can, for an A-type personality it’s amazing, because you can constantly be improving, trying things differently, and moving forward. So on the technical side, that’s what I love about radio. And then I love the idea that you get to meet such a diversity of different people, and an incredibly diverse selection of South Africans, obviously people from around the world as well, but mostly South Africans, who are doing amazing work. So I’m not interested in being an investigative journalist like you have been and still are I’m sure. I’m more interested in, I like the positive stories and I like the fact that conversations can unite, they can delight, they can challenge us. I really believe in that.
[3:30] RL: It’s this kind of conversation.
MC: Ja, love it. Love it.
RL: So, over the years, you’ve also interviewed hundreds of people. Anyone who sticks in your mind? Something that you learned? Something that makes you, that changed you maybe, subtly?
MC: I don’t know if I could think back so far because my brain is fried after so many years. But even if I look back over the last few weeks. So, recently we interviewed the fantastic author Mandla Langa. And when I listen to Mandla speak and I listen to the kind of stories he has to tell, I’m left in awe, you know? It’s… Or Pitika Ntuli, professor Pitika Ntuli, or the new vice-chancellor of Cape Town, she’s extraordinary. So every time I meet someone or they come on the show, they say things which make me rethink my own life, make me rethink how I’m approaching the world, am I opening myself up? Do I have to really address my own white privilege, do I have to think about… You know? And I really love that. So everyone has something to offer. There’ve been some pretty horrible people as well. I’m sure you know.
[4:43] RL: And music? Music is a big part of it. What role does it play in your life?
MC: Oh…
RL: And why? And where does it come from?
MC: Music and the arts in general actually, visual arts as well. I just, I don’t know where music came from. Actually, ironically, I mean when I was a kid, I was mostly listening to classical music, when I was very young because my parents would listen to that. And then when my brothers kind of became teenagers, I was listening to what they were listening to. But, I love…you know music, they say, is one of the things that will actually stay and remain within your synapses and within your brain for longer than any other art form. So, and I can completely understand that, I mean, you remember an event and you remember a song that’s related to that event and you remember a sound. I love the idea of sound, I love the idea of words in music. I always used to think that I wasn’t so wild about dance and then I realized, actually, the thing that really made me think about dance was the music that they danced to. So that was always important for me. But it’s interesting. I think when you, sort of in your 20s and 30s just become obsessed with music and you collect it and you collect it, and then something happens and then you suddenly become obsessed with art – maybe it’s because your bank balance gets a little bigger – and then you start to collect art. So then I’m like, okay, what’s next because I don’t think I can afford anything after this.
[6:08] RL: You started your own production company in 2000. Why did you feel that was, that you wanted to do that?
MC: So, I, you know I love working in the media world, specifically the broadcast world for radio. And I started a company to do various different projects and the one was for Constitution Hill, we did some of the audio for Constitution Hill, for the museum. Soul and some choir singing and that kind of thing. And then we started working on Sesame, Takalani Sesame, so we were the very first team to create Takalani Sesame for radio – hugely challenging, I’m not even sure if we succeeded but it was..
RL: Why was it so challenging?
MC: You know, I think, A, when we think about translation we need to rethink what we think translation means. Translation is not something, taking something from a to b, it has to go through all sorts of reversions and other things.
[7:08] RL: What did Takalani Sesame entail?
MC: So, we had to create, so they would create the TV version and then we would have to look at the TV version and then reversion it in a way that worked for us. But also you reversion it into different vernaculars, so into isiXhosa or isiZulu or whatever the case may be. And then you need to also think about where are the people going to be, who are listening to this for children. So, for example, I mean, the muppets, which is Takalani Sesame, or Sesame Street, and then they talked about the muppeteers and then there’s the mouseketeers and the musketeers, and the problem is if you are like living in Winterton, KwaZulu-Natal, or something, you’re not gonna know what those references are. When they talk about a goldfish in a bowl or whatever, those are not references that are directly…
RL: Relevant. Or even understandable.
MC: Mm. So you need to start thinking about that. And that’s very much a case in this country, is we have to start thinking about how we reversion things. And I’m not just saying from English to, I mean from any language to, and it could be a language back to South Africa, I mean a language to English. So it’s hugely challenging and a great learning curve for me.
[8:17] RL: I was just thinking. And it must have opened up your eyes as a white urbanite, English-speaking.
MC: Ja, to my failures, actually, to my, the fact that I at that point…
RL: To the gaps in your education.
MC: Ja, that I could only speak English at that point, and a little bit of French and a little bit of Dutch, because my parents are Dutch, but it was then that I kind of went on and I started learning Zulu at Wits, just because I thought I (inaudible).
RL: How important is that? I must say, I’m in the process of trying to learn a little bit of Zulu and it’s bloody hard.
MC: Actually, I think Zulu’s one of the easier languages to learn.
RL: Okay, but, it’s, it’s hard to learn a new language as an adult.
MC: Ja. But we have to do. I think it’s absolutely crucial, I think if we want to live in South Africa and we want to show that we are trying to, that everybody is trying to kind of…
RL: Reach out?
MC: Reach out, and we’re talking about everybody reaching out, I’m not actually talking about, about, race, and I’m not even, but I’m talking about inter-generational, gender, inter-genderational. All of that kind of stuff. We really need to be working very, very hard for that in this country.
[9:28] RL: And then, when the call came for Basa? Or did you apply, or did you…
MC: No, I didn’t apply actually.
RL: And what, can you remember the moment when you sort of, what?
MC: You see, I’d been doing some radio work for Basa so we did this amazing little radio…
RL: Ah, so you knew…
MC: So I knew the company really, really well. But when they said would you like to apply, I mean I was, I must say it’s probably the first time I ever applied for a job. And, of course you get to go into the HR place and, woah! But it was, in retrospect, it was incredibly easy and I dont know if they knew what they were letting themselves in for. They were like, ja, no, sure, she’ll be great, and then it was like, huh? But it was probably the most, one of the most important things I have ever done in my life. Taking that position.
[10:14] RL: But talk to me about that changeover first. Because now you cover, I mean it’s a completely different environment, completely different culture almost.
MC: It’s… you have to start dealings with things like governance, because you’re partnering with the Department of Arts and Culture, and apart from the fact that you’re working with loads and load of businesses, so. Governance is an absolute…
RL: And you’d never been in a managing position, management position.
MC: I’d never been in that kind of management position.
RL: How did you experience it?
MC: In my first year I think I cried nearly every second day. And I was like, this I can’t do, and I was like, okay, I’ll give myself two years. And then after two years I was like you know, we can really do amazing things (inaudible), I’ll give myself four years, like four years. And the thing is, is that, you keep realizing that there’s more and more opportunity. And also, Basa is an incredible animal, or organization. But it’s like, you could not easily have a Basa today, Business and Arts South Africa, where government actually put out an arm and business actually put out an arm, and they decided to join forces, because it’s a public private partnership. So…
[11:16] RL: Give an example of how it works, what happens there?
MC: So. The Department of Arts and Culture gives a sum of money to Basa annually, which of course then means that you have to be an absolute stickler on everything you do. I mean, cause you’re basically running according to the PFMA act, even though it’s not a schedule 3A organisation. And then we have about a hundred and something business members, lucky we have all the big banks and a lot of insurance companies, etcetera. And we work together, so you’re working cross-sector all the time. So one minute you’re working with government, one minute you’re working with the private sector, one minute you’re working with the arts sector.
[11:54] RL: Give me, give me an example of a project.
MC: Okay, so, a good example of a project would be something that we’ve, currently doing with RMB, which RMB is funding and the Department of Arts and Culture’s putting some money into it as well. It’s a scale-up project, and it’s about skills development. But we’re talking soft skills, so we’re talking things like design thinking, we’re talking things like asset-based community development. It’s process work as opposed to saying, okay, you’re an artist, you’ve gotta be an entrepeneur, entrepreneur, I never say that word right, so therefore, tell us how to do a business plan, what’s your marketing plan? I mean, we don’t work like that. We like going: In your community, which could anywhere in the country because we’re working across provinces, what are your assets? Let’s look in your, in this room, what are the assets we have right now, or the first asset we have is Ruda Landman, can’t get better than that, okay, what does that mean, we have you in the room – what can she offer? She has an iPad on her lap, okay, what does the iPad actually offer to, okay well, especially if she has Wi-Fi, then it means we can access anything. So you really start to work around, instead of scarcity thinking, it’s the opposite of scarcity thinking. So we do a lot of work in that space, and that’s a partnership between the Department of Arts and Culture, which, through us, and RMB.
[13:16] RL: So, why do you say that it probably couldn’t happen today? Is it a trust issue?
MC: Ja, I think that there is a trust issue, which is not to say that it can’t be fixed, but I think we’ve had some really rollicking times, and ja. So, we, look, the advantage is, is that Basa’s an extremely well-run organisation. I’m not talking about myself, I’m talking about the organisation, and how it’s run etcetera. So, the potential is that, you know, we’ve been there for 20 years, the potential is that that partnership continues. But I don’t think it would easily be formed today. Also, I don’t think the arts is like front of mind at the moment, you know, and I think that’s the big issue.
[13:57] RL: Have you seen a change in approach from your business members?
MC: Yes. So, what we’ve seen change, so when I started at Basa, a lot of the money was coming through, to the arts, through businesses, through corporate social investment. And of course that shifted and changed. A, because the arts and sport are not included in Section 18A, which is the donor tax rebate, but also because as we’ve moved along, the deep challenges in this country are about job and work creation, people seem to think that they can’t get that out of the (inaudible) economies, which is actually insane because 2.9% of our GDP is put forward by the CCI.
RL: What percentage?
MC: 2.9%, it’s high.
RL: Ja.
MC: And that’s the direct and indirect. So, more and more and more CSI was, was, is now…
RL: Taken up by education, health, ja…
MC: It’s taken up by health, education, and the like. And that’s, that’s been a big challenge. Then what we saw was that the arts went into the marketing budget, and that was all fantastic until about 2008, 2009, because of the economic crash, marketing budgets shrank.
RL: Ah.
[15:09] MC: And now, what we’ve been working on, and this is my, I mean I must say this is kind of my passion, is trying to understand how creativity and the arts works as part of shared value. So how would a business use the arts to drive the way they are really perceived in society so that they can really engage with society, or engage with communities, and at the same time do really, really well. So, they can use arts-based thinking or arts-based intelligence through their human resources, they can use it through their transformation agenda, they can use it as part of BEE, they can use it as part of marketing, and so and so and so. And once you go around in that circle, it actually starts to come out as strategy. So RMB is a company that like even looks at that. Nandos would be another company that looks at that. And they do it in really, really interesting ways, so it becomes part of their, their brand, their strategy, their ability to move forward, their perceptions in society and amongst communities.
[16:06] RL: How have you changed in the 10 years that you’ve been there?
MC: I have learnt, and it’s interesting, I’m thinking about it now because I am sort of moving to the end of my career there. So, I’ve had to think a lot about what I’ve learned. I, I think I’ve grown up quite a bit, although maybe not really (inaudible).
RL: And what does that mean in itself?
MC: I suppose growing up means that you, you have a level of responsibility. I mean, we have like 12 people that you’re working with, which doesn’t sound like a lot, but that you are responsible, you know you’re responsible for making sure that we have money in, you know, we have a budget every single year to work with, we have a sustainability budget in case something goes wrong. I mean you start to think much more broadly, much more about your own community that you’re working with. You become much more aware of your own failure, you know. I mean I think the older I get the more I realize I have to learn. And you start to realize how amazing teams are. I’ve learnt an incredible amount about teams and how they can work together.
[17:13] RL: You did the social entrepreneur…
MC: Yes, loved it.
RL: …programme at GIBS. Why did you decide that you wanted a formal, formal education, formal training?
MC: Well, I thought I was gonna go and do a masters. And then I decided, no, this would be more interesting, and it really, it actually really was. I mean, because in many ways, I think if you are gonna work in business, you need some of the skills, business skills.
RL: Mm. Kind of hard skills.
MC: Ja, and there was no ways I was gonna go and do an MBA. So this was interesting, and it’s also interesting because I do believe that the social entrepreneurship space is one that’s going to keep growing and growing differently, although I’m not a big fan of that word, entrepreneurship, probably because I can’t say it right, but apart from that I’m not a fan of it.
RL: Ja.
MC: I think it positions people in ways that’s unfair in this country. And people who have access and agency can easily go that route, but people who don’t, can’t.
RL: Ah.
MC: So, ja.
[18:09] RL: And you’ve received very interesting and varied awards, the latest of which I think was the French, what, you’re a Chevalier des Arts et des Lettres.
MC: I know! And, I know, and you know when they gave it to me, you get this like Michael Jackson, like one of those badge things, whatever they call that, you know. And then, but there’s not horse, there’s no sword, there’s no, I was very disappointed, I was like, where’s the horse? And a knight.
RL: What difference does something like that make?
MC: Well, it parents like, well, not my parents cause my father’s no longer alive, but it makes your mom, my mom was terribly happy. And I suppose it’s just a little bit of credit. And I think that one of the things that…
RL: Next time you write a letter, there’s something that might catch someone’s eye.
MC: Oh no, oh, ja, I’ll put it, I’m putting it like loud and clear, especially (inaudible). But no, but seriously I think also the not-for-profit sector is an extremely challenging sector and I think that every now and again a little bit of recognition is probably a good thing. Because you’re not, you’re constantly about having to promote and grow other people and other people’s lives. And it’s really important. And sometimes you can start to feel very thin-skinned, stretched, it’s very tough.
RL: Ja.
MC: So for me, something like that was like, well. And I get invited to all the French events.
RL: Keep your French up.
MC: Ja, exactly.
[19:31] RL: So why did you decide that this was enough now? Or how did it come about, let me ask it that way.
MC: Ten years, I think, is a pretty good number. I mean, listen, Maria Ramos has just said ten years and I’m out. So if I can follow in her footsteps. No, I think ten years is a good number and you know I started to get very exhausted in the last year around the kind of administrational process of what it meant to run the organisation and as I mentioned earlier I am a very curious person, very passionate person, so, and my interests are diverse. So I thought, well, the organisation is in a great space now, and I think it’s time for me to make a change. And you know the saying, the only, change is the only constant. So it kind of works for me.
RL: So, plans? Or are you stepping into the void and seeing what…
MC: I was stepping into the void. I mean when I resigned I was pretty much, that’s it I’m gonna go. And then I got a very interesting offer which is slightly out of the arts space but would probably use the arts as a tool, and is very much around our constitutionalism, around our Constitution and how to promote it and that kind of thing. So it’s, I can’t say a hundred percent what it is because…
RL: It’s still confidential.
MC: Basically confidential. Although it seems to me that everybody knows. Ah, just heard you’re doing this! And I’m like, how do you know? So it’s really, it’s very exciting, it’s gonna be a deeply challenging process, but…
[21:07] RL: Is it a full-time job?
MC: It’s a full-time job. Back to, back to running an organisation that’s been around but like now needs to be tightened up. And I mean I’m, as I say, it’s an extraordinary board of trustees, I’m deeply honoured to be, but excited.
RL: Ja, and with it, to change tack a little bit, will go a physical change. Tell me about the environment in which you work and that you like working in, the physical environment.
MC: Ja, oh that’s such an interesting question. So I must say the Basa offices are fabulous, I’ve always loved working there.
RL: Are they up high, and…?
MC: They’re on the second floor of a gallery, actually, so,
RL: Ah, lovely.
MC: So we kind of get to go and see art, but apart from that, it’s just an easy space to work in. But I suspect it’s an easy space because the people are amazing. I mean you, you can’t do great work unless you have a great team.
RL: Ja.
[22:06] MC: So, you know the one thing we do at Basa, is we have this thing called Conduct the Orchestra, and we kind of use it to show business people what it’s like to conduct an orchestra. And it’s a fantastic way of showing them how the arts can teach them. But what you realize so quickly is, there’s no ways you can lead or be a conductor, if, because your team is leading you. And that’s really what we’ve learned.
RL: It’s a two-way street, ja.
MC: So for me I suppose, what is a space, it has to be welcoming, there has to be good coffee (inaudible)…
RL: Big windows, lots of, do you stare out?
MC: I love light, ja. I love light and I love greenery. I mean they actually say that green is the colour that makes you the most calm. I don’t know if that’s true, but.
RL: And in your personal space? Where have you chosen to live?
MC: I live in Melrose Estate, which is a very treed area. And I live in a very beautiful old apartment, and so I like to be able to see trees, I love light, and I like space, and I like walls that you can hang art, and obviously old-fashioned CDs, which I never use anymore, but they’re kind of arty in their own right.
[23:13] RL: Have you often moved or have you been there?
MC: You know what, I have moved a bit, but I’ve been there now for nearly a decade as well, and I, I don’t think I’m gonna move again. I don’t, you know, my lifestyle is not the lifestyle to have a house and a pool. I’ve had it, and it just was like this black hole of despair, cause you’re always fixing the pool, which is leaking, or the garage door, which, you know the pain of that. And it’s so much easier to just be able to lock up, even though I have a cat there, but it’s like you can lock up and someone can come, and you can just toodle off. It’s fantastic.
RL: Ja.
MC: And I live quite close to the Gautrain, so I can just climb into the Gautrain and within an hour I’m on a plane somewhere. It’s just nice.
RL: So do you think you can ever live in Cape Town, or Loxton? Loxton, not.
[24:00] MC: Cape Town…you know what I love about Cape Town, I…
RL: Is that you can come home?
MC: Ja, exactly! I love, I love water sports. So I love kayaking, I started learning how to surf, my brother’s a big surfer so I started learning how to surf last year. We should all be learning how to surf this year because the waves are gonna be very big. So we need to like figure that out. And I like that kind of, I like water activities. And I love trail running and that kind of stuff. So Cape Town would be really good for that. But, you know Joburg is cool. I grew up in KwaZulu-Natal, which is also cool but maybe a bit too hot and humid for me. The water’s good in Durban though, you can definitely surf in Durban, apart from the great whites, but you can definitely surf better in Durban than you can in the cold water of Cape Town.
[24:54] RL: Well, good luck for your new ventures.
MC: Thank you! Ja.
RL: And may this year also give you opportunities to go and surf, it sounds fantastic.
MC: I really hope so, I really hope so.
RL: Thank you for your time.
MC: Been an absolute pleasure.
RL: And until a next time, go well.
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