Growing up in Alexandra in Johannesburg, Dineo Ndlanzi was a bright scholar who dreamed of becoming a chemical analyst. Then, in Matric, came the mysterious “episodes”, the prophecies and visions that led to her being institutionalised, subjected to a battery of gruelling physical and psychological tests.
The clinical diagnosis was temporal lobe epilepsy, and the medication that was supposed to ease her burden only made her feel worse. It was only years later that Dineo came to understand that her condition wasn’t a curse, but a calling, a gift that allowed her to commune with ancestral spirits and navigate a pathway between worlds.
Today Dineo is not only a qualified sangoma and a trainer of sangomas, but an artist, an entrepreneur, a 21st Century visionary who works with major corporations to build bridges between people and unlock their own potential for greatness. In this conversation, recorded at the BrightRock studio in August 2016, she shares some of the answers she has found, on a journey of change and enlightenment that is uniquely South African and yet holds lessons for the world.
Transcript:
R: Hello, and a very warm welcome once again to the Change Exchange. My guest today, Dineo Ndlanzi. You are a traditional healer but you are also an artist and a consultant in the kind of real hard world out there with big companies, et cetera. What do you do in your role as a consultant?
D: So I think as a consultant we, what we do is we really bring together, so we work in a social consulting space, so really facilitating processes that bring around social change on systemic, at a systemic level, so we are looking at complex issues, such as education, you know, land reform, food security, health, and so our role is to really be in partnership with partners, not only business, but we bring together government, civil society and business to try and resolve these issues, because in order for change to happen, we are responsible for that change, so, yes…
R: Yes, sure. It’s amazing, it’s wonderful to know that there are people who consciously set out to make those connections, but I want to take you back to the beginning. At school you wanted to a chemical analyst. What did you study finally and where did that take you as a first job?
D: I didn’t, because of my calling, you know, I was, I mean, I was seen by my teachers as an extremely intelligent young woman, I think for me growing up in Alex, I kind of knew that the only way out of that life was to really study and work hard, and that was my intention, and I studied and I worked hard, but unfortunately I didn’t even study anything afterwards because my calling started when I was in school and it started before I went to a private school, because I got a scholarship to go to a private school, and I was having lots of episodes at school that I wasn’t aware of, that my teachers actually came and spoke to my mom that they were worried about my intelligence because I was taking it too far. I used to study the whole book in advance, by the time my teacher got there, it was like, no, that’s not how it works, so they, they probably …
R: You are every teacher’s nightmare.
D: Yes, they probably thought it was because of that that I was having episodes, because apparently I was seeing things …
R: Episodes?
D: Yes, I would go and say I’m seeing things and I would be prophetic in the class, but I wasn’t, I don’t remember those episodes, so when I went to the private school, I went to an American school and it became worse because I was far away from home, from my family, and it got more intense that I actually had to be, you know, sent off to an institution for six months in my matric year and everybody thought I was crazy, and I thought I was crazy and at Church they thought I was demonic or possessed, so it was really, you know, a difficult time, ja …
R: Yes, Dineo, how did you experience that, I mean, to be put in, it was a psychiatric institution?
D: Ja, ja …
R: How did you experience that at what, 18?
D: 18, yes. It was very difficult because you are at a psychiatric institution with people with different illnesses, you know, I wasn’t put at, luckily at the people who were schizophrenic, but I was put still in an institution with people who almost committed suicide, heavy depression, anorexia, like just a variety of things, and it was at a time where, you know, as well, at the time Satanism was at rive, so I was caught between it, am I being called by something else or am I mentally sick, because the psychiatrist could not find a thorough diagnosis for what was happening to me, because when I was in conversation with them, I sounded proper, and you know, all the medical tests that they ran came out negative, so they gave me the nearest diagnosis that they could think I was struggling from because of the episodes that I …
R: Which was what?
D: Temporal lobe epilepsy. And I came out of it and the medication actually worsened me and then I went to hospital again, they were like, no, you don’t have it. So I didn’t know what I had, I didn’t know what I had and I didn’t know what was going on, I only, it only became clearer that mental psychosis was attached to the calling when I went, I took, you know, a group of business people to Wits, the Origins Centre, just after it was opened, and we were speaking to a scientist about innovation and the birth of innovation and where we come from, so he spoke about the role of healers and African shamans, in particular on the birthing of innovation and spoke about how science fails to understand when you are birthing into the call and when we are genuinely scientifically psychotic. So I was sitting at the back of the room and I cried because they said a lot of people find themselves in mental institutions and they are not supposed to be there because they are called into this work. And then, you know, a few years later, after my, my …
R: And suddenly, suddenly you thought: “I’m not mad, I’m not…!”
D: No.
R: Ja.
D: Ja, I mean, I was like, okay, I’m not mad but I was still experiencing certain, you know, extreme depression, extreme mood swings, like I was on the extreme all the time, so there was a part of me that knew that I was not mad, but because of, what is it, what you call like schooling, you know, schooling tells you … And this is what is different about traditional healing, you are working with an ether or with an energy that is not tangible, and schooling speaks about logical thinking, and this is very illogical. So when I would go through those episodes, I would retreat to what I know, which was the logical thinking, and because it didn’t make sense at a logical level, I would think maybe I’m still mad, so I would still go back to my madness.
R: But a lot of your parents’ family, the earlier, they were healers. Did it not ever attract you? You were …
D: Well, I was raised by my maternal family, not by my paternal family, so a lot of people …
R: Oh, I see. Did you know that your parents, that your father’s family were in …?
D: Yes, and I knew my father was, but I was a born-again Christian, so I did not associate with those practices because in the belief system in which I belonged in, they were demonised, you know, you were talking to the dead, you were talking to ancestors. The word “ancestor” was taboo in the Church, so I didn’t want to associate, you know, and I grew up strongly with a maternal family that were not very strong in traditional practices and my mom went from one Church to the other so, you know, that’s what was familiar to me, so it is not like I knew that my dad was. I told him like I’m not going to be praising, you know, demons and the devil, so I was quite resistant towards that, ja.
R: Sjoe. So what finally facilitated that change?
D: I think like knowing who I am and that I’m always striving towards greatness and doing better, and I was struggling. It seemed like no matter what I put in, I was not getting back, so I was like, no, this cannot, it cannot be a curse, there should be something, so I started enquiring. So I always, I’m the one who is always hungry for wisdom and seeking understanding, so I ask a lot of questions. So I started to ask God questions and I said: “Well, God, I’m a good young person, I go to Church seven days a week, I’m in the Church this and the Church this, but nothing is coming forth, so I’m still stuck and I’m not seeing, I can’t further my studies, I can’t be in a good healthy relationship, everything I seem to hold does not last, what is really going on, I want to know who you are and work with me?,” and the answer was that we were called to sign up for Bible studies and it was the most beautiful thing I have ever been to because I went there thinking I will know Genesis to Revelation, but that really taught me who God is because God is not in the Church that I’m in, or God is not that person that I … God is within and you …
R: How did you, how did you get to that from Bible study?
D: It was in Bible study. I asked God and God showed up, right, so God showed up in the Bible study because we had a different Bible study teacher who was teaching us spiritual understanding of who God is, not religious understanding, not God as a figure who only lives within the four walls in which we worship and praise, so …
R: Sjoe, you were lucky, you were lucky to come across someone like that, hey?
D: And God responded and then that continued for me, and then I became curious about my African identity because I started to question: If I call the God of Abraham, who I have no idea who he is but I denounce the God of my people, you know, of my grandfather. I was raised by my grandfather, a great honourable man, who I attribute a lot of who I am today, to his, you know, to some of the morals that… Yes, I was like, it didn’t make sense, it was a contradiction, so the more I started to ask questions, the more God showed up for me, and God showed up in a way that really started to serve me and that started to open things up, and the more I was steeped in who I was as an African, then, you know, what seems to be stuck started to, then all your negatives started to “unpure”. So I was told I had to do a certain ritual that had to introduce me to my ancestors because I just, I was, ja … I was in a relationship with my husband, we were not officially married then but I had a miscarriage and I lost the children, and I was frustrated and like, no, you need to be grounded in who you are, your ancestors don’t know who you were. I didn’t believe much in what was going on, but what happened afterwards really propelled a belief in my ancestors.
R: Do you remember a moment when you started thinking: “Wait, this might actually be the answer!”?
D: Ja, I think, I think for me it was a provocation that was shown my way by a Rastafarian guy after Church, and it was fine because, you know, a girlfriend of mine was trying to call the boyfriend, so I asked the guy to call the boyfriend’s place so, you know, then … And he asked me where, you know, where, you know, where I come from, like: “Oh, what Church is that?” “Oh, you went to worship, you know, the white man with pink lips.” I got really offended, you know, I was like: “What are you going on?” And he asked me why I’m black, and I was like: “Well, I’m black because I’m born black,” you know, but that was a provocation that really started to … Then I started to ask those questions: “Why am I denouncing people who I know?” My grandfather, for example, who was laid and who I attribute a lot of who I am too, but then I’m praising somebody I don’t know, you know, and I’m thinking that the answers lie there. So that was a turning point for me and I started digging and I, you know, and I went into, there was a guy who was doing African studies and I went, I was in his class for a whole year and that really changed my whole understanding of African belief systems, ja.
R: How did, how did your family react, because they were born-again Christians, I suppose?
D: Ja, my mother was, my mother was everything, like was a born-again Christian and was Presbyterian and was like, you know, like she was in and out of Churches, I guess we all do that when we are seeking spiritual fulfilment and contentment. So my dad always said I had a calling and my dad said: “You see, your calling would be very different than mine, it is, you’re going to be a Sangoma but you’re going to work differently,” and I could see it now because my calling is, yes, I was trained as a Sangoma but I’m trained in other healing modalities as well, because what I need to connect to is to spirit, it’s not physical identities, it’s not about, yes, because I would find people say: “Ja, but how come white people have callings?” I mean, like all spirit does not have race, does not have gender. Those things what humans have put to boxes and try and organise us in some way and also control us, so, you know, so I feel like my work as a Sangoma is beyond just African belief systems, it’s more about trying to have people understand their spiritual identities and that in spirit there is no limitations and there are no boxes.
R: Dineo, but on a practical level it is a huge commitment, I mean, you were basically bankrupt and you have to pay for the courses that you went to, et cetera?
D: Ja, ja, I mean, the thing is, it’s more, for me it was the financial thing, it’s because I lost my job when I went into the training, well, they could not renew my contract, we were going through a financial crisis in 2010 and when you work for a consultancy we are always reliant on clients, so, you know, we didn’t have any big clients and my boss said to me, you know: “We cannot renew your contract,” and I have just said I’m going to do this training. So for me it was also a positive thing, because remember, I come from linear logical thinking, so what this invited me to do was to really believe in the non-visible and trust that everything that’s happening is about my process, then it made me surrender to the process more because …
R: Step into the void.
D: Yes, I stepped in fully and I was, I mean, I was in the school, you know, for 24 hours, in somebody else’s face, which was really hard because unlike schooling, you go to school and you come back home, school is home. So I stayed with this woman for about, you know, 12 months, you know, learning and training to become a healer, but a lot happened for me than just learning how to become a healer, a lot of things were challenged, a lot of things were shifted. I became a better woman, you know, because taking the healing practice requires huge responsibility, that’s why I don’t advocate for young children to go through the process, because you’re working with issues, with big complex human issues that people come to you, you know, hoping and trusting that you will help them understand what is going on, ja. So, I mean, I didn’t have money, but money came, it did come, you know, it did come, work started coming, people I have not seen in a while I would bump into and were like: “What are you doing? What is going on, you lost so much weight?,” because you lose weight, and I was like: “Well, I’m in this training.” “Oh, no, man, give me your bank account and I will help you out.” So I was to trust that there is an energy that is for me, that’s out there, and the more I put in the work, the more I would get out of the work, so it was really beautiful. For me, I think, it was important that I lost my job because I don’t think I would have believed in the way that I believe had I not went through all those experiences, because I would still be very sceptical, because remember, this other world does not work with logic and it does not work in the way that we have been taught as human beings, because we always, you know, if we don’t see a picture of God, it is hard to believe that there is a God, if we don’t see a picture of something, if we cannot hold it and feel it, it becomes very difficult, but because I had to go through and I could not hold and feel it, I had to trust it is there and I had to trust it is for me. It eventually showed up …
R: How long did it take?
D: To do the training or to accept the calling?
R: No, well, to, ja, before… There was a point when you still thought, and everyone around you thought that there were something logical wrong with you, and then there was a point when you accepted that, okay, this is not a logical linear, the answer is not logical and linear.
D: Ja, so when I, by 2010, when we already knew I had the calling and I had to train some day, but we could not associate my symptoms to the calling because we also had linear logical, that if you are called, you probably get physically ill and no doctor can heal you, we didn’t think psychoticness was part of it. Like I said, until I read later material that was written by a professor at UKZN, who writes books around a calling and traditional practices, so it’s actually a long, long time ago. We were not called “Sangomas”, we were called “The crazy ones”. The reason we were called “The crazy ones” is that we have the ability to tap into you, you know, without knowing anything about you, because when you come to a Sangoma, I don’t ask you what’s wrong with you, I tell you what’s wrong with you, you know, so I have to tap into your deepest parts to know what is fragmented, what is not working, where is this darkness in your life. So that’s a little bit crazy for, you know, because logically, like how do you know? People still do that to me, it is like: “Okay, that’s true what you’re saying, but I’m just trying to find out how you knew all that information?” “You know about me and you’re asking these questions because you did research on me.” But I don’t have to do anything, I have to sit in, be present, tap into your spirit and our spirits communicate and then I become the voice of what is happening in that world, so, ja …
R: But you have also said that being only a Sangoma was too narrow, and you wanted to expand that.
D: Ja, I think for me, because we always have to evolve in who we are, change is very good because what was yesterday and what is today might not really speak to each other, and if you’re only that, you know, and maybe because I’m not a big fan of experts, because sometimes we cannot see our blind spots when we think we are experts in fields, so I’m always the one for experimenting, realising what’s new, what has shifted, because then we become relevant. So when you’re just a Sangoma, whereas people come to you with a variety, because “Sangoma” means about, it’s really about holistic healing, so training in just being a Sangoma, it’s never enough. If you deal, if I deal with people who you tell them things, they emotionally break down because you’re bringing or triggering old wounds, so I had to go and study something else, I had to go and do alternative therapy, I had to go and do life-coaching, because somebody comes and they think it is ancestral, but it’s not. You need clarity in your life and you need somebody who, you know, who is trained and skilled to help you find that clarity and it requires no medicine, it requires no boundary, it requires none of those things, it just requires somebody to facilitate that. So that’s what I believe just being a Sangoma, it is narrow, because if we are holistic healers, at least let’s have basic skills and understanding on other modalities and practices, psychology, you know, health. I’m a big fan of nutrition and health, because sometimes people’s imbalances are caused by health, disease is what is not at ease in your body. So that’s what I mean by Sangoma not being enough, and because then we think that’s the only way, and sometimes people come to us and I’m like, you actually need a medical doctor or you need to go and really seek a psychiatrist because this seems like this is something deep, I can help you at this level but I cannot go deeper than that because I’m not skilled to take you there. So it’s an act of integrity for me, ja.
R: And humility.
D: Ja, ja.
R: Because not everyone can say: “I cannot do this.” People usually want to own the space, kind of thing, ja.
D: Ja, I think humility comes from, you know, if you really, I mean, we say Sangoma is a calling, so for me, if this is a calling, you know, then …
R: You have to honour it, you have to… yes.
D: Yes, and honouring the call is also recognising where you are limited
R: Against this background, are you a planner, do you have a five year plan or a 10 year plan, because you cannot really if you’re open to stuff that happens that are not…?
D: Ja, it is not my strength and, I mean, it is funny because we, at work, you know, where I do the consultancy at Reos partners, we did an assessment called “The Gallup StrengthsFinder”, where it asks you a series of questions, an on-line test, which focus on your strength and how to best use your strength in the workplace, and “planner” was not mine, you know. The five top ones was like adoptability, you know, empathy, individuation and will, which is, I have an ability to win people over and, you know, I mean, I have aspirations, I have aspirations and I send my aspirations out there for what I know what I would like to be. I want to be, I want, you know, facilitate spiritual wellness for people, that is my plan, and how is not up to me because this work has taught me that there is divine power out there. When I focus on the details then you get disappointed because you want things to happen your way because you have planned it so much, you know, but, you know, I mean, I have got children, I’m married, so there has to systems and structures in place, but I’m more about, you know, rather than vigorous planning, more about allowing for the present moment to show itself up. I know what I want, I know what I’m hoping for, but holding to the plans in my work would …
R: Can restrict it.
D: Ja, like, I mean, I didn’t, I’m not only now a Sangoma, I train other healers, you know, which the term for it is “Kobela”, and that wasn’t, it wasn’t planned, you know, and because it wasn’t in the plan or an aspiration, I struggled to embrace it. So that was another big change that came because when people can live in my space, so from a family home of 5 to a family home of 9, you know, and having to work with people who are adults, who come from different backgrounds, to really get them to engage with the practice but to also engage in your ethos and your ethics and your home values, it is really, it has been a huge challenge, but it has been a gift because I always tell them that, yes, I’m your trainer, but you’re my teacher too because I have attracted you for my own spiritual growth because I said my work is to heal and is to facilitate healing. I’m not, you know, when people say like: “Oh, heal me,” no, I facilitate healing, you know.
R: Yes, yes, yes.
D: And I can only heal with what you give me permission to and with what you are, allow yourself to be healed, because if I had all the power, Ruda, I would be somewhere seeping things and doing, you know, like enjoying, what you call, like in Mauritius or something, because I have the power to do anything, you know, I could be, ja, you know, you know, I will be an alchemist, where I just transform things in an instant, but I believe that I’m a facilitator. So when you’re a facilitator, it means you also require permission from others, you know, you require permission from those you are working but, but with the non‑visible as well, with the people’s ancestors, so I don’t, even when I walk around, people know I’m a healer, instantly like: “What do you see about me?” I don’t work that way, I don’t go around like I can see your people – you have not given me permission, you know. So that’s how I defy myself as a healer …
R: There needs to be a commitment from the other side.
D: Yes, yes.
R: But I want to ask, since you are taking people into your personal space, that is not only your personal space?
D: Yes.
R: When did you meet your husband and what is that relationship, and has he bought into this?
D: Ja, I mean, I met my husband in 2000, and for me …
R: Okay, so this was long before all of this happened?
D: Long before I even became … And he actually is the one that really helped me embrace African practices because he is a traditional Zulu man but he is very, I mean, because people say you’re modern. I don’t understand why tradition cannot be modern, I think he is more of an open-minded traditionalist, so, and he is the one really who helped me with everything, even embracing being a trainer, he is my support system, you know, he is the one who is like: “You know, baby, it is time, you know, you have always known your calling as bigger.” And, you know, it feels, when I’m struggling to adapt to changes much easier, he is that voice that is within me that I’m not hearing well, if that makes sense, so, ja…
R: Sjoe, that is very special.
D: Ja.
R: And your children, what role do they play in your life?
D: Oh, they play drums for the trainees, they know every ancestral spirit that I walk with. So I always say that our children chooses us, you know, and because they chose us, that they know that we will be the parents that we have to be to them to become their higher self, and they have become very embracive. But we have got a check-in relationship with the family, so I have to check in with them, you know, now that there is 5 other children because you treat them like your children that are in the family – “How do you want mommy to be?” “How do I be with you?” Because their time with me also gets shared, ja.
R: Do you do that formally, you say you have a check-in system?
D: Ja, ja.
R: Do you meet on a Friday night at 18:00 around the table?
D: Well, we try, we do the formal stuff but it doesn’t always work because the nature of my work is that formalities …
R: Ja, it’s much more fluid, ja.
D: Ja, it’s much more, but when it happened and I could realise, and it’s like how do we be as a family, so for example …
R: So you have that conversation?
D: Ja, we have to, because my other work, my consultancy work, there is a lot of travelling that gets involved, and there was a time when I was travelling almost every week, you know, the past year, and I could, and then I could realise that they were struggling at school and I had to say, okay, probably because they are used to a mother who was fully at home most of the time, because I ran my practice from home, but now my consultancy work is taking me outside …
R: Suddenly you are absent.
D: Then we speak, you know: “What is going on?” and “How can we be…?” Then we would have family times and we would have …
R: But your eldest is only 9 and the youngest, what, 4?
D: Uh-uh, I have got three.
R: Oh.
D: My eldest is turning 11 and my middle one is 9 and my …
R: But they are still little?
D: Ja, but I have got, I mean, I have got a community of helpers, I have got my parents here …
R: Ja, but I mean, the conversation with your kids, do they step up, do they tell you what they think?
D: Ja, because remember, I’m not only trained to become a traditional healer, I’m training inner-child work and I work with people, so it is a skill that I have. It is not always easy, it is not they have a conversation, it is not an adult conversation. They find words and forms in them, so if I’m like: “What would you need?” “Okay, if mommy can make us pancakes?” That’s important to them. So then I would have to …
R: Yes, but it means time and attention, basically?
D: Yes, you know, and if we, you know, we can go to the park, that’s what they are, you know, expressing, so it’s those things, it’s not like an adult, you know, serious conversation, it’s …
R: That can go the abstract need.
D: Ja, you know: “What would you like me to do more?” Or we play games, I remember one time we were driving and I say: “Oh, let us speak about: ‘I like it when mommy does this and I don’t like it when mommy does that.’” It was fun but they revealed so much painful truth. You know, I’m a very powerful woman and then they said: “We don’t like it when mommy shouts at daddy,” and I was like, jo, you know, and the kids can tell the truth because, and we don’t like it when, and I was like it wasn’t only about me, it was about daddy, it was about gogo, it was about everybody else. We like it when and we don’t like it when this happens, and …
R: Sjoe, that’s quite a brave thing to ask.
D: Ja, you know, so, and I mean, you know, I come from a very violent and brutal background and I’m trying to make sure that my children don’t experience that because it’s how do you become a better mother, it is to recognise your own wounds and that you don’t become a wounded parent, and so, ja, because of that I can realise that I might have been abused in a certain way but because I did not recognise and acknowledge my own woundedness, somehow I can be an abusive parent. So the fact that I can be busy all the time is neglecting my own children, but somebody else can see it as like you’re working hard for your children and you’re serving them, and 25 years later they are like: “We actually missed you, we didn’t care about all the money you had to make to pay school fees.” “We would have been happy going to a basic school rather than having you present.” So those conversations are important with children and I try and have them, so I would explain, because they would say: “We are angry because you are always away.” I was like: “Okay, this is the reasons I’m away, I’m away because you have to that school, I’m away because this has to happen, so let us make some choices here.” “What is important to you?” you know, and like: “Well, because you don’t make pancakes for us anymore” and like: “Okay, if I make pancakes on Sundays, will that be enough because I cannot make pancakes away and if I stay home, daddy alone cannot take care of one, two, three that’s important to you?” So kind of giving them, you know, and then children are wise in some ways, and like: “Okay, pancakes on Sunday, we will be happy with pancakes on Sundays,” because then I make sure that Sundays I don’t, Sundays is no practice, I don’t practice, I don’t work, Sunday is my family time, so it is … ja.
R: And tell me a little about your home, where do you live, how long have you been there, how did you choose it?
D: Ja, I lived in Cosmo City, I have been living there since I came back for my training because I was, we got married in 2008 and we moved in December 2000 .., but I was never at my house because I was always unwell and I had to be taken to my parents’ home, so I didn’t even know my neighbours very well until I came back for my training, because the thing that happened is, you lose your ability, your touch with reality with what is going on around you because you’re in your own little world, and, ja…
R: Jis, it must have been difficult for your family, for your children, your husband?
D: Ja, we chose it because it was affordable and I was a freelance artist at the time and my husband was the only one with solid income. We wanted to, we wanted a house, so we wanted to live in our own house, we wanted a yard where we can raise kids and we wanted to live closer to Alex but we could not, because we grew up in Alexandra and our whole family is there, so we wanted to have a support system. So initially we were going to live in Soweto and then there were cheaper affordable houses in Cosmo City, so we went there, it was a new community. It was hard, for me that was also a big change because, you know, growing up in Alex you had access to almost everything. We didn’t have a car at the time, so Alex was like easy access …
R: Walking distance, um.
D: And then you go to a place where you needed to be mobile and so, but it was really a great change and, I mean, now the house we are living in, there is expansions, it have construction happening because now the family is expanding, I’m entering training, and it is not only my trainees, it’s also my clients that share my space, so, but it is a beautiful community. I think what I love about Cosmo City is you’ve got the luxury of the quietness of a suburb but the openness of a township, so I can play the drums and my neighbours won’t complain and then, you know, I can have a Sangoma slaughtering ceremony and my neighbours won’t complain, but I could also ask for quiet and they can also ask for quiet and peace, so it’s that kind of neighbourhood, it’s a beautiful neighbourhood.
R: Dineo, it was absolutely lovely to get to know you.
D: Ja, thank you.
R: And all of the very best.
D: Thank you very much.
R: And to you also, thank you for joining us and until next time, good bye.
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