Louise Carver was a frail and introverted child, confined to bed with a chronic illness that left her battling to breathe. She spent much of her spare time reading, and when she summoned the strength to get up, it wasn’t to play outdoors, it was to sit at the piano and write her own songs, with lyrics inspired by her love of literature.
She was barely into her teens when she signed her first record deal, and by 17, she had a hit single racing up the South African charts. But that was just the start of the remarkable musical career that Louise has carved out for herself, not just at home but abroad, where her trendy dance songs have taken her twice to the top of the prestigious Billboard Dance Club Play Songs chart in the US.
A tireless performer, ambitious and free-spirited, Louise is hale and hearty these days, as she needs to be to keep up with a gruelling schedule of composing, recording, and touring. On the brink of a major international breakthrough, Louise took time to sit down with Ruda for a candid and revealing chat about the ups and downs of show business, the lessons she has learned from a trail of troubled and broken relationships, and the joys of moving from her Cape Town home to become a fully-fledged Johannesburger.
Ruda: Hello and a very warm welcome to another session with the Change Exchange and my guest today, Louise Carver, folk rock singer, songwriter, a string of hits to her name, both singles and albums and both here and in Europe and in the States. You’ve just had a huge success in the United States.
Louise: Yes, thank you for having me. Um, I have earlier this year I had my second number one Billboard chart hit on the Club Dance Chart, which is pretty special for me, because …
Ruda: That’s fantastic, Louise! Because it’s really, then you’re out there on the world stage. You’re competing with everyone.
Louise: Yeah, we actually knocked … The first time I did it, I knocked Rihanna off the charts and then this time it’s Demi Lovato. So, um, it feels great. And what also is lovely with the Billboard Chart is that it’s done properly. There’s no thumb sucking …
Ruda: Question marks?
Louise: It’s pure stats that they … how many plays, how much streaming, so it’s purely quantity of how many times your song has played, um, and that, that pushes you up or down the chart. So, it feels good to be in a system that is really monitored well.
Ruda: No, fantastic. And this from someone who spent the first about 10 years of your life mostly in bed because of Asthma.
Louise: Yeah, yeah. I’ve actually just recovered from, from flu. So uh, I don’t often get asthma anymore, but it was up until about 12. I struggled to breathe most of my life on cortisone, um, and I think that made me an introvert just through the fact I couldn’t really do sport or much because my breathing and forced me on the piano because I couldn’t really go outside, um, and reading. So, I think that I became a good lyricist from reading so much and I’m, the one thing I could do is play the piano that …
Ruda: Could you? Because your piano teacher fired you when you were 10?
Louise: Dammit! I have a very, um, I was composing from about 11, so I haven’t … It’s funny to think back on your personality, but I don’t ever mean to be rude or dismissive, but I’ve got a strong personality in a quiet way and I think a very free spirit and I didn’t like the way she was. I didn’t like the discipline of it. I already, I don’t know how you know this, but my soul knew how to play the piano and I knew how to write.
Ruda: You did not want to practice your scales.
Louise: So, she fired me from her class because I didn’t want to … I got to grade four and then I thought, I’ve got this, I don’t need you, lady. The coffee breath breathing on me and my ruler on my hand. So, she let me go. And from there I started writing and composing lots. I just remember my oldest sister always slamming doors. Shut up! Um, and uh, and then at 15 I started a band and uh, also opera training with a, quite a renowned Capetonian opera singer, Wendy Fine. And um …
Ruda: You had an unexpected break soon after that you were just 15?
Louise: Yeah. I, um, put a little band together as a lot of teenagers do, but I happened to have a base player whose father had started an independent record label in Camps Bay. Hadn’t really signed anyone yet. Um, and I went to go and play in the garage where they had some musical instruments and I never used a mic before because I was opera-trained and got on and sort of playing this song and uh, the owner’s girlfriend heard me and brought him down reluctantly, he didn’t really want to come down …
Ruda: Oh, it’s just kids …
Louise: And he was watching rugby and he was grumpy in his pyjamas and, and I played a song for him not thinking anything. And from then on, he took me under his wing and it was two years of playing terrible, terrible … There was one place called Steamers. Every Wednesday I’m on the N2, my mom would drive me there in her Jeep and we would do that and get me back and get to school. So, he really tested me. We did photo shoots to see if I was photogenic. He didn’t just put his money behind me, he really made me do some terrible gigs and that’s the way it should be. And then when I was 17, I, remember ….
Ruda: How did you experience that as a 16-year-old, to actually be in front of an audience and trying to find a response, getting one or not getting one. What was that like?
Louise: Everything seemed so natural. It felt like this is my journey and felt like I, I’m, I was just doing what I was supposed to be doing. I didn’t question it. I didn’t go like, it was just very natural. Um, I’m quite an introvert, but when I’m on stage it’s not like I’m a big performer. I’m a small, authentic performer on a piano, but it’s, it’s storytelling for me. And um …
Ruda: And it worked for the first time, for you, I mean?
Louise: Yeah, I didn’t, I didn’t think, what am I doing? I just thought this is what I do.
Ruda: And then the first hit?
Louise: Um, that was strange. Not the fact that it was a hit. Um, it was strange … People’s reactions, my friends … And I was in matric. So, when you’re a young girl, 17 all you want to do is be included in parties and then fit in. I just wanted to fit in. And I’ve never fitted in, and I’ve tried, I’ve given up now, but they didn’t tell me they were releasing it. It was during my September exams and my mum and the record label decided we’re not going to tell her which was good and bad. Good, that I could focus on my exams. Bad, that I was not prepared. So, I went to school on the day of writing Kringe in die Bos, and Afrikaans was tough for me coming from British parents, so I was really working hard and I got there and school girls said we heard your song on 5fm and I didn’t even know they had released it, so I was very unprepared and then going into first year varsity I was treated a bit like a freak. So, I’d be waiting at the canteen and people would, that’s that girl, and I’d turn around to go like, hi. And then it was like, so it took a while to adjust and I think it was very normal for me. The song did very well. It all felt normal, the career side, but the people’s reaction was a bit lonely.
Ruda: But still you went to university, you got your honours in politics, philosophy, economics. Why did you feel that you still wanted the formal education?
Louise: Um, it’s what my family values most. Uh, and still. So, uh …
Ruda: It was the accepted thing? It is what one does?
Louise: But I was already interested in philosophy. Um, I was quite a loner and my mom gave me many books, uh, I think therefore I am, Descartes, or um, and I would read them and the owner of the record label also was big into education. So, he said, we can handle this, both. We’ll back off when it’s your exam times and then we’ll push you when it’s not. And they did that. So, I was there for four years …
Ruda: You were lucky to find someone like that. So, understanding and so supportive?
Louise: Yeah. He actually said you need to do the PPE degree. I’ve researched it as the one coming out of Oxford and I was the first group of 12 to do it at UCT under Don Ross, who was our dean, then, and it hadn’t been introduced before. It was a great degree to do and I loved it. I had the best time and after six months on campus people just got over it. They could see I had no ego. I was just another student, another student just doing my thing and at half past two, finished varsity, political studies and then go to my little Volkswagen Beetle and went to the studio and work till one in the evening and that was my life, but I loved it. And when you young, you have so much energy, you can’t believe it. Then you go out partying at one and then crawl back into accounts. I think first year, accounts 101, and then you do it all again and it’s so easy, but it changes. It uses a bit of energy.
Ruda: And you said that one of the highlights of your career for you is the traveling. There’s such different places from taverns in red light districts, to St Petersburg theatres. Um, tell me a little bit about that and that exposure?
Louise: Um, well, I have to thank my dance music, which was such a curve ball for me because it wasn’t the plan. The plan is singer, songwriter. Intensely honest to a listening crowd. Well, at 21 I flew to London and I spent many years in London trying to get that career going. But what kept giving me number ones, I had two in Europe at the time. I play the game and I’d say yes. it was dance music. I kept coming in the path of DJs that would give me their instrumental tracks with no lyrics or melody and say do something with this. I was working but not in the genre that I thought. And then it was … it became really successful. So, I started getting deals with Sony in the UK with dance music and still to this day it’s the dance music that takes me all over the world, um, the States, Russia and Belgium, London. And it’s fun. It’s fun. It’s a, it’s like having two creative personalities because when I’m onstage with my grand piano and my beautiful dress and I’ve got a cellist behind me, that’s lovely. That is where my heart’s at, but sometimes when I’m performing to huge festivals in New York or Boston, like I was two years ago, and in casinos … I just think … Who would have thought? I’m in my thirties, it’s two in the morning. There’s this heaving crowd of teenagers. I’m throwing luminous things and they’re going, how’s everybody doing? I’m Louise Carver from South Africa. And I think this is so fun. So, I don’t take it very. It’s my, um, as Joe Bermuda in the States says, oh, forget you’ve got an alter ego. And I put my little short shorts on and I thought this is unexpected and it’s quite fun. I don’t take it so seriously. I think that’s also why it’s done so well. It’s a real-life lesson, when you just throw things out with joy and you’re not micromanaging, it actually does very well.
Ruda: Why did you decide to go to London in the beginning?
Louise: I thought it was the next step. I’ve got a British passport and my sister was already there and I thought, well, to get my music to the next level …
Ruda: Bigger world, bigger stage?
Louise: I must go there. I’ve already got family so it wasn’t so frightening. And um, I did get a break. I met a photographer in South Africa who said you need to go and speak to Kenny Hawkes because he was a British photographer. I did. I made play the game, which was this huge dance track. It still gives me great royalties. Just sit back, and it just took off. It was an unusual, strange. I wrote it about my time working in a nightclub, um, when I was 18 next to Blues restaurant in Camps Bay and it was me just saying, hi, good evening sir. Can I show you through to your table and just watching the dynamic between men and women trying to pick each other up and bars, so it’s called Play the Game. Um, and then from there I got a Dutch investor investing in my second album called Silent Scream. And then we were doing deals for three years with Universal International and they said to properly sign you in, the protocol, is that South Africa, because you are South African, South Africa Universal needs to sign you first and then we’ll send an email saying we’re going to pick you up internationally. And um, it was all happening. People are already sending me congratulations, and like the 11th hour, the MD of a Universal at the time in South Africa went, we’re not her. She’s not on our list of people to sign in this country. And after three years of going to lunches with the international guys really slumming it in London, they just turned me down. And I thought they would say I had gone on holiday again. I’m in, I’m now going to be picked up by Universal International and they’ll work it. They couldn’t do anything about it because South Africa refused to sign me. And the next week Sony South Africa signed me and that’s why I moved back to South Africa and we released Empty Fantasy and that went to number one.
Ruda: But you say it so easily? That’s why I moved back to South Africa. But that was a huge – we talk about Change Moments. That was a huge hinge moment.
Louise: I know, but it was moving so fast, so I didn’t have, it wasn’t like I was sitting there for a year going no-one wants to sign me. I was signed the next week. So, it was … And then the song went. And then …
Ruda: So, there was an impetus …
Louise: And then money started to come for the first time in my life. I’ve been so poor until um, and my dad has this philosophy that at 21, fly free little birdie and that’s it. Everything’s cut off, everything. So, he paid even university up to 21, I wanted to do another year in my honours. And he said, well go get a loan. And so that’s his way of doing it. Which, thinking back, I look at a lot of my peers and people younger and they have been given a lot more. Um, and I think it’s made me very, like, you’ve got to make this work because you haven’t got … you can come back for food and shelter, but that’s it.
Ruda: So really self-reliant.
Louise: Really go and I am, I, you can put me anywhere and I will make it happen. Um, and I like that about myself, but um, it, it … Sony signed me, Empty Fantasy just shot up the charts and then I got a manager for the first time. Um, and then he started booking me corporates and you know how that is. Suddenly I’ve got money so I didn’t mind moving back. I actually could buy my first 42 square meter apartment in Hurlingham. I moved to Joburg, um, and it was mine. It was my first little apartment and I was happy. I was happy. I will always say it was the best of times and the worst of times to quote Charles Dickens, because, um, it was bad. I had been engaged for five years with a man that was a bipolar coke addict and opened a gentleman’s club and it was just a crazy world and that had ended and it’s all I kind of knew in my twenties. So, then I was on my own in Joburg, with no friends except a band that if we weren’t playing, they were with their girlfriends or their wives, but it was the best of times because I learned about myself …
Ruda: How does one build a new network?
Louise: Hard for me. It was very hard. Um, now I, I can say I’ve been in Joburg for 10 years and …
Ruda: It happens slowly, it takes time, one thinks that it will happen within six months, but it doesn’t.
Louise: Oh, you’ve always got social engagements as Joburg. We’ve always got dinner parties, but where you can crash on a friend’s couch and go like, oh, the worst day ever. That takes years. Um, so, and, and yeah, it was, it was lonely, but it’s not an unfamiliar feeling. I heard Trevor Noah once say that, you know, he’s used to being the outcast and I’m used to being lonely, so it’s not such a foreign feeling. It feels lovely when I’m not lonely, but I’ve travelled so extensively around the world on my own. When they said we don’t. There’s no budget for a manager and agent. I’m going anyway, that’s when they said in Russia when I went to Russia for a week, my agent said, you’re not going to St. Petersburg on your own. And I was like, I am. I’m going, I’m not missing this experience. No one spoke English and I was there for a week and one, like interpreter, was about 21 who could do the odd word, but I was in silence pretty much for a week. And it was great. I saw a drug deal go down. I had tinted windows and a range rover and I was sitting right there just doing my scales to warm up in a club or two in the morning like, no one’s going to notice, but I’m a professional. And um, they didn’t see me and they just did this in Russia, first night that I was there, they did a whole coke deal in front of the front of me, but I thought just slide down the seat.
Ruda: Louise, and now, what’s, what’s going on. What’s next?
Louise: Well, I think, uh, a lot is happening in the States for me, so I need to spend more time there. A lot more shows and live performances.
Ruda: You said you spent two months of the year there anyway.
Louise: Yeah. So that’s going to somehow increase. We’ll work that out. Um, I have also got an events company called Evergreen events. So, what happened was, I always say I out niched myself. I’m too niche for myself because I’m not an Oppikoppi festival and I’m not a band. And so, I was getting booked a lot for corporates, um, but not connecting with fans anymore. So, the money was great, but you don’t get that feeling of singing to people that have collected your albums over the years and it’s, it felt empty. So, I thought, well, I can’t just sit around and wait for someone to book me. Um, I’m going to just organize it myself, so I’ve done it for last two years and it’s been very successful. I’ve done joint ventures with appropriate venues around South Africa that have the outdoor feel with family and um, and it’s done very well for me, so I’m happy with that. And I’ve got …
Ruda: I saw you did one in January near Hermanus, on one of the …
Louise: Yes, I did that. I invited Ard Matthews from Just Jinger and the years before I invited Watershed. So, I do a nice combo of adult contemporary, similar style music. Um, so fans can really get a double what they, you know, what they would see if they’re not just seeing one artist that get to see two, that they know all the music because we play all the hits and we combine it and I work out the shows. So that’s been going well. And I have a jewellery business, Louise Carver Collection. I’ve got a shop in Parkhurst.
Ruda: Ja, how did that come to be? You said that so quickly. She makes jewellery!
Louise: And I do imports, so not everything. When I was in New York, I was in Charleston. So, the story happened when I was, 10 years ago, I realised and looked at who am I, who are the people that come to watch me and it’s not your cap buying this, buying Louise Carver on the vest that’s so, that’s fine for bands like Prime Circle and you know, all the other bands, but I’m not that. So, what am I, what do they want? So, I thought, well, jewellery would be a lovely thing if they could have a piece of beautiful jewellery from, from the show. And remember it that way, something different. So, I uh, spoke to wholesalers around South Africa and firstly only worked with pearls and then I realised that’s not everyone’s cup of tea and I’ve extended it to work with Turkey and China. And then I still try and work with South African manufacturers. And then two years ago I was in New York staying at opposite Chelsea market and it’s all handcrafted. Their jewellery from these unique designers. And I just did deals with who I thought would work because I’m actually wearing one of them. So, so this, so they, they like handmake the … So, it’s, it’s a lovely side business that I enjoy, it’s feminine, it’s soft, and when I perform there’s a lovely girl that has it all for me on the table and I have a little shop in Parkhurst. So nice, nice, nice project. Music is always the main thing. Um, and I’ve got a lot of international projects on the go and I finished my, I think it’s my sixth studio album, so I’m resting. There’s no plans yet to make another album. It takes a lot of energy. So, I think I need to get the songs right first, because everything’s about the song. If you don’t have the song, you, you can’t polish a turd. It needs to be a good, good song first.
Ruda: You referred to a very unhappy relationship. Um, was that the one that was also quite abusive?
Louise: Um, I’ve been in several. Um, I would say three. The last one being by far the most damaging. Um, you know, I think people find it so difficult to understand here are you self-reliant, independent adult. Um, and yet you get drawn into a situation where someone is in a position of so much power over you. How does it happen? I think I always thought that I had a very high self-esteem because the media kind of tells you. And the feedback was great. We like you. Then I must like me too. Um, so I, I think for entertainers, a lot of us suffer from this. We believe the hype that we are awesome, we are doing so well. And um, it was only through the last relationship of three years when I realised something was really, really wrong and I spoke to my mother and so I ended up after having an intervention from the therapist …
Ruda: Sorry, but if you say you only realised very slowly, how does that happen? Because I mean, what did he do to you, if I may be specific?
Louise: Yes. Um, well it’s, it’s, he was a narcissist, so people don’t know what a narcissist is. I think it’s just a Kim Kardashian figure, kind of looking at themselves in the mirror and posing for selfies. That’s not, that’s a small, small little aspect of not a certain type of narcissist. A narcissist is somebody with zero empathy, very similar to the behavioural traits of a sociopath and psychopath, so they have no ability to think about anybody else or have empathy for anybody else. They’re totally about their needs they are and how they get them. So, they see people as a …
Ruda: A means to an end?
Louise: A means to an end and they don’t have the facility to see it in any other way. They cannot change it, it’s how they’re programmed.
Ruda: So, I’m sure they can be very charming because that is the means to the end.
Louise: Yeah. So, they have to do that act. It’s called the love bombing stage and that’s two to six months. Mine was very short because they hate sharing the limelight. Trump is a, obviously a classic example of a narcissist when he’s not in the limelight, he’s not a very nice person. So, when you date me, you got to understand most of my life. I’m in the limelight. And the funny thing is I didn’t really care about it, but it comes with what I do. And uh, so two months in a, I had my Joburg album launch, and uh, that was the first signs of it. He jumped out … I was driving him back. I said, no, I’m fine to drive. I hadn’t had a chance to drink. I was doing all the media because he told me to get a taxi or an Uber. And I said, no, no, I’m fine. I’m fine. I’ve got all my gear in the back. I can’t just leave it and he sulked and I got to robot on Jan Smuts and he just jumped out of the car and I said, what are you doing? And this was about two in the morning, got him to come back in the car, drove him to his … He was staying with his parents in the spare room, driving his mother’s car. These are all big signs. But um, he broke up with me the next day and I left for Russia and then started hoovering me. That’s the next thing. So, they’re testing you the whole time. It’s very complicated, but, but they sense …
Ruda: How did he harm you? Did he harm you physically?
Louise: He did. In the end, he did break my toe. I’m a … and laughed in front of my brother. Um, and uh, I told my brother he’s just milking it, but that was the end and it was going physical, but luckily, I had an intervention. So, what happens is, as a, as I was explained to you earlier, it’s like they put a little drop of arsenic in your tea every morning, so we don’t even realise they’re pushing your boundaries. They’re checking your boundaries. They’re having massive rages, they’re keeping a chaotic environment then they’re incredibly loving and it’s, it’s your brain looks the same as I’m an addict of heroin. That’s what the therapist told me. There’s no difference between your brain right now …
Ruda: Because it’s going up and down. So, you are absolutely, um …
Louise: Yes, they, they gaslight you, so you think you’re going mad. They’ll say, I told you that you see, the problem with you, Ruda, is you don’t listen. It’s, and he would say it’s not the Louise Carver Show. Not everything’s about you. And all I would say was, I don’t remember you said you were going to see your ex-girlfriend for lunch. Um, I’m sure I would’ve remembered that. Yeah, you see again, it’s all about you. So, it was coming aggressive every day and then you actually think it is all about me. I am a horrible person. They wait for you to at four in the morning to reveal your insecurities. Maybe your mom said something hurtful to you when you’re a kid and you say you’re really sensitive about that. They’re gathering all that information. Um, they use you for your status. In my case, he was an absolute bum, he had no money. He was blacklisted. He’d been to jail for fraud.
Ruda: Why did you fall for him?
Louise: Very good looking, very charming. I was very lonely, I had lots of friends, but I dated very inappropriate, wealthy, older, you know the social scene that us get put into. Those are the only people that I was meeting. So, I met this refreshing camel man kind of outdoors guy and I thought this is perfect. This is actually how I was raised. I’m a girl that likes to go on adventures and I don’t want to be put in a little box and put a little gown on and play on the piano and then get put back. I’m, I want to have an adventure and I’m ready for it now and I chose the wrong person. So, it’s …
Ruda: You said that you did have therapy afterwards. What did you learn?
Louise: I learned that, um, I confused self-efficiency, the belief in the ability of yourself to get a job done with self-worth. I have very high belief in myself in tasks. Tell Louise Carver to do something, it’s going to happen and it’s going to be brilliant and before the deadline, because that’s how I work. And then you’ll go Louise is so clever. So, I’m like, yes, it’s like stroking the doggie, but like, that’s, I’m A-type. I’m very efficient. Um, but when she got down to it, I had very low self-esteem. I didn’t think I deserved. I thought actually, why would anybody want to be with me? They’re only with me because I’m famous or that I sing well. I’ve got a nice house or whatever, that’s what I thought, deep, deep down, and you will, you on your most honest self and we had to work on that and it’s um, unfortunately most of it comes from your childhood. So, it’s a long way to go back. It’s painful and initially you, um, you don’t want to go there, you fiercely protective of your clan and that’s how you’re to be as well. You’re taught you do not throw any family member under the bus. And so, she had to break through that first. And I said, we’re here to talk about my ex, not my mother, not my father. We should … He’s just a symptom that we need to … And eventually we did and, and I was very angry and then you have to come full circle and go: Parents are people. They did the best they could with the knowledge that they had. You know, every parent is going to make mistakes.
Ruda: By the light they were given.
Louise: Exactly, the circumstances. Yeah, exactly that they came out of. My parents came out of the Second World War in England. My dad believes if he can put a roof over your head and feed you, his job is done and I think a lot of dads felt that of that time.
Ruda: Talking about a roof over your head. Where’s yours and what does it look like?
Louise: Oh, I’m, I’m very happy in the … I’m not going to be specific. I’ve had a few issues with stalkers over the years, so I’m just going to say I’m happy in Joburg, in the northern suburbs, I live near a beautiful park. I have three dogs and I’m very happy in a new relationship and somebody totally different to anybody I’ve dated before. I think I’ve got it right this time and uh, yeah. And I’m very happy in Joburg.
Ruda: When you say that … I mean, you grew up in Cape Town? You lived there until you were 22, 23. Why Joburg now?
Louise: Um, I think I grew up in Joburg. I think it’s a city that … Obviously I didn’t grow up in Joburg, but I grew up. I became who I … I became an adult in Joburg and I like how open we are as a city to new people. Cape Town’s very closed and that always frustrates me. I like how social we are, the things going on and that people don’t just sit at home and um, I like that. If you have an idea, there’s enough money in the city to …
Ruda: For someone to come along and back your idea and you can grow it.
Louise: And you will probably find someone who will be interested. Yeah, they’re not gonna have a meeting about a meeting that they’re going to have – that’s Cape Town. Um, and Cape Town is smoke and mirrors for me. It’s, it’s beautiful. We all know that. But actually, if you’re a working person that’s career driven, it’s a very tough city to be in. Whereas Joburg is like, right, let’s do this. Look, it’s not always amazing. It’s not the prettiest city, but I live near Delta Park with the cosmos out and I think it’s pretty nice for a city and I spent quite a bit of time in New York and I think it holds its own as a city. I think um, you know, Central Park is obviously beautiful, but we’ve got Emmarentia and I think it’s got a lot to offer and I like how, um, we are very, uh, not segregated and that’s very important to me. I find Cape Town is still very divided in where people choose to live. I don’t know how you’re supposed to learn about each other living so separate from each other. So that doesn’t interest me. And when I came to Joburg I wrote Warrior with Zulu Boy, and that was my way of going like, yes. And we have, I’m living in more of the city that represents who I am. And um, the song is as a musician, this is more who I am, so ja.
Ruda: Louise, thank you so much and I hope you will be very, very happy in your new relationship. And that, Joburg has been so good to us, that I hope it will be … well, 10 years. You’re already a Joburger.
Louise: I am! I think it’s nine years is your like …
Ruda: Cut off.
Louise: Yes, you’re in. No, I think it’s Cape Town. Joburg is like, you’re in, it’s cool, we’ll have you. Thank you so much for having me.
Ruda: All of the very best. Thank you for joining us. Until next time, goodbye.
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