Actions speak louder than words, says the proverb, and Tebogo Thapelo Sidney Thekisho is the proof of the pudding.
He’s better known by his hip-hop name, which he adopted in his schooldays, as a signal of his intention to make things happen. ProVerb. Rapper, recording artist, presenter, producer, Idols presenter, all-round entertainer.
But he freely admits, looking back, that he wasted opportunities in his youth, and didn’t always put his potential into practise. Growing up in Kimberley in the Northern Cape, he struggled at school, failing subject after subject, whiling away his free time by rapping freestyle with his friends.
But that would prove to be the foundation of his career, as he turned his skilfully rhyming words into action when he moved to Joburg in 1999 and began entering rap contests and talent shows. Having discovered his niche in sound engineering, he found a job in radio, as a technical producer for DJ Fresh on YFM.
Inspired by his mentor, ProVerb has gone on to fame and fortune of his own, fulfilling the vision of his most famous song, My Day Will Come. He sat down with Ruda to chat about his path from underachiever to hip-hop hero, the joys of fatherhood, his high-profile divorce, and the importance of “setting your own definition” of who you want to be.
Transcript
R: Hello, and welcome to the Change Exchange. My guest today, Tebogo Thekisho … No, the other way around.
P: No, that’s it. You got it perfect. Thapelo Sidney Thekisho.
R: Aitsa!
P: That’s it!
R: But your best friends call you ProVerb.
P: They do. It’s a nickname that became a stage name, that has since caught on.
R: Where did the nickname come from?
P: It started in high school when we were all trying to be rappers, and I wanted to almost define what my rap would be about. I landed on ProVerb because I wanted my music to be about the truth, to be positive, to be inspirational and so ProVerb was the name I chose.
R: And are you the Wise Man? Are you the Solomon behind you?
P: Well, I certainly strive to be. I think I’m learning a lot myself, but as I learn, I share it in my music.
R: And so, now you’ve got … What? Five rap albums to your name?
P: I do. I’ve got five studio albums and I’m currently on my sixth. I’ve got a mixtape and a second DVD coming out this year as well.
R: And TV presenter, radio presenter?
P: I do a bit of TV, a bit of radio, a bit of business …
R: We all do everything.
P: We have to!
R: This is the freelance life!
P: That’s it.
R: Tebogo, but I want to take you back to the Northern Cape, where both of us grew up.
P: Yes?
R: You were born in Kimberley.
P: Yes I was, proudly so. So Kimberley, Northern Cape 1981. I grew up with my grandmother, I loved Kimberley because largely I had nothing to compare it to. I didn’t know any other, but I love Kimberley. I’ve got nothing bad to say about it, and I loved my childhood.
R: Yes, but I listened to one of your … Does one call a rap a song?
P: Sure.
R: Sorry, I’m very ignorant with this. I listened to one of them, of “My Day Will Come”, and it struck me that you said you needed someone “not to think of me as an inconvenience”. So your teachers and the adults in your life didn’t at that point support you?
P: You know what, that was my own doing. I had great opportunities. My parents were fortunately in a position where they could afford me great opportunities and take me to good schools, but at the time I didn’t recognise the value of those opportunities and I squandered a lot of them. I would play around in school, my goal was just to kind of get by … So when I was written off, it wasn’t necessarily because they didn’t support me, but I didn’t come to the party. But it’s kind of only later on in life that I realised the opportunities I had squandered, and it’s possibly shaped where I am now and how I view opportunities now.
R: Youth is wasted on the young … I feel about that … I feel like that about my time at university. There were so many opportunities and you just let it go. But anyway, those were the days. So how did you start rapping?
P: Rapping kind of just started as a hobby at school to be cool. Something we did at break time just to “yo, yo, yo” and mimic a lot of what we saw on TV.
R: So there was a whole bunch of you doing it?
P: There was a whole bunch of us, if not everybody, to be honest. Then it kind of caught on and stuck, and at the time I didn’t realise it would become a career. At the time it was just a pastime, but for some reason I really had a knack for words, a knack for expression and then I ultimately pursued it as a career.
R: Can you remember the first time when you felt: “This is actually going to work. I have this audience. I’m holding them.”
P: I do. At one point I went to an international school in Mafikeng which was called ISB at the time – the International School of Boputhatswana, before it became a part of South Africa. And there was one assembly where we were asked to make a contribution, and mine was to do a rap song. I couldn’t tell you – the nerves … I was afraid out of my mind!
R: Was that the first time that you actually performed in front of an audience? Apart from your mates?
P: Ja, ja. So when I came off of the stage, getting a great response, I felt invincible. And I think I’ve been chasing that feeling since!
R: And the first album?
P: My first album was in 2005 under an independent record company called Outrageous Records. That, to date, many consider a classic. It just means, it’s timeless and I mean that with all the humility in the world, but it gets a lot of love and to date I get to perform songs from that album. As a matter of fact, last year, I celebrated 10 years after the release of my first album, which is great.
R: How did you get to the point where you could release an album, because that means time, it means money, it means people must believe in you?
P: Well, I entered a lot of rap competitions. I came to Joburg in 1999 and there were a lot of radio stations and competitions and campus competitions and so on. Then you start building a name, a little bit. You start getting popular, your name starts appearing on flyers and events and whenever there’s a competition, they put your name forward and so on. And I think by so doing, I caught the ear of a girl who was running an independent label at the time, and the rest – as they say – is history.
R: And can you remember holding a copy? Was it still a CD? These days it’s streamed?
P: Sure.
R: And it’s not nearly as tangible.
P: Exactly.
R: And you can remember holding it?
P: I do remember that, I do remember the launch like it was yesterday, honestly. And I felt at the time as though I had arrived, not realising that it was only the beginning of the long journey.
R: But did you then think, ‘this will be my career’. Or did you still think ‘I will have to find a very old job’.
P: You know something, it’s interesting you asked me that, because I don’t think you ever think of it as a career. In the back of your mind you think this is something I love, I enjoy, it’s a passion, but I still have my job and my career. It’s only when you look back and realise it’s been ten years, it’s been five albums, that you realise this has actually been my career all along! So I definitely think of myself as an entertainer, and I think entertainment is definitely my career.
R: And how did you earn your living, in the beginning?
P: Well, I studied sound engineering, which is what I completed, and my first sort of job in the business was as a technical producer at the radio station YFM for DJ Fresh. He was hosting the breakfast show and I was a technical producer cutting all the jingles, promos. And I think I spent a lot of time with him as well. He was my mentor, so to speak, because I picked up a lot of … You know … The business skills, the industry ideas from being around him, and I learned a lot from being with DJ Fresh. In fact, till this day I pay my respects to him a lot.
R: Do you think that it’s important also in … I mean, you’re still a young guy … In the lives of younger people to have mentoring … it’s such a flavour of the decade and one gets a bit bored with everyone talking about it, but do you think it is really … It makes a difference?
P: You know something, in my humble opinion I think we can learn something from everyone that we interact with. And I don’t think it’s necessarily important to have …
R: A defined relationship?
P: But I think, whenever you get an opportunity to interact with anybody, take as much as you can from them. Watch, learn, listen. But most importantly, ask. I always say I have a big mouth and I don’t hold back and there’s nothing as a silly question. And I always ask and ask and ask, and the little that I know is because I dare to ask. So more than a mentor or even the concept of a role model, which I don’t subscribe to. I think we can learn from anyone. Because someone always knows something you don’t. And I think that mind-set is probably more important.
R: Can I take you back to the sound engineering and studying that. Because it just … Reading about you sounded as if you found something that actually resonated. Because you didn’t do well at school because you weren’t interested? But suddenly there was something that actually worked for you. Yes?
P: Look, by the time I did sound engineering, something definitely clicked, but I have to give credit to my mom, who never gave up on me at any point.
R: Mothers don’t!
P: No, they don’t. And my grandmother as well. I owe him who I am. So when I came to Joburg in 1999, by the way, I matriculated in 1998. Barely! I attempted IT. That was kind of the flavour at the time. Failed dismally and I don’t think I made it to the exams. I think by July I was back at home already. Then the following year, my folks again – bless their hearts – never gave up. We attempted computer science and again … Failed dismally. Then my mom said: “Look, you’re always sitting at that computer banging away. I’m always hearing sounds and music and I researched a little bit, and there’s a course called sound engineering. Would you consider something like that?” And I think at the time I was also getting a little bit older, and my little sister was coming out and she was saying: “Look, this is kind of your last chance. We need to now focus all the resources on your little sister.” So I think the combination of it dawning on me that I’m maybe wasting opportunities. I was also beginning to grow up a little bit and also just that faith that my mom had that we just need to find the right thing. Then I think a combination of my passion for music, and sound engineering … Then it just clicked and all of it just kind of aligned. Man, then I went in there and I came home with distinctions for the first time in my life. I was even offered a job at the same institution to lecture other students and I was employed as a student adviser for other students. So I really … Look, I consider myself a late bloomer, but when I bloomed, I really bloomed. It kind of just all clicked, and I haven’t been the same person since.
R: Full tree of roses.
P: There you are. There you are! A bouquet!
R: What does that say for young people? Because I think so many … Your story echoes that of so many other people. I always want to say ‘what’s the message’ to someone who starts out, can’t get it right …
P: Look, I always say … Because society is sometimes designed in a particular way where …
R: They want to put you in a box.
P: Exactly. You’re considered smart if you can do this. You’re considered athletic if you can do this. You’re considered pretty if you do it this way. And it’s all these little boxes, but what I’ve sort of learned from my experience and I try to share it with other young people, is to try and find your own box if there’s such a thing. Proverbial box. But find your part, find what makes you unique and thrive on that. And try and set your own definitions of who you want to be. And I think the minute you’re able to do that, you’ll definitely thrive. And don’t write yourself off!
R: Ja. Because that must have been difficult for you. Failing twice, and having to go home?
P: Listen, there was a point, and I was convinced that …
R: You were just a good for nothing?
P: Absolutely. That I’m sort of no good for nothing. In fact, in the song “My Day Will Come”, the first bit … I’m talking about how I was an underachiever. I was written off, I was kind of barely making it. But the truth is I think I was just misplaced. I was just in the wrong space where I’m not good at … I’m still not academic to date. I try to be – every second year I’m registering for some course or other, but the truth is my calling is elsewhere, and I really excel in that space.
R: How did the TV presentation come along?
P: That was roundabout the same time as the music kind of took off. I’ve always had the gift of the gab – I talk a lot. So one particular year, while we were at the Rand Show, performing, I was intro-ing some of the other acts and somebody said: “You know, you speak well. Would you consider doing TV? There are auditions for Channel O. Would you try it?” And I said why the heck not. I went for it, and got the call back and in 2003 I got my first TV job hosting a Hip-Hop segment called Head Rush – well, it was called Nasty and then it became Head Rush at some point.
R: And did you feel ‘I can relate to a camera’?
P: Very much. As I say, I’ve always thought of myself as an entertainer, so whether it was music, whether it was studio, stage, live, speaking, presenting … All of it kind of just fell into who I believed I was and I still believe I am.
R: Does your TV host personality differ from your rap personality?
P: It doesn’t. It’s probably just sort of dynamic in semantics but in truth, it’s all me. It’s just different ways I express myself.
R: So ProVerb the rapper is still very much you. It’s not a persona.
P: No. Listen, ProVerb is Tebogo. It’s me. My art and my craft is just a mirror image and an extension of who I am.
R: Then I want to ask you something. Survivor? I have never understood why anyone will put him- or herself through that. How did it happen?
P: I still don’t either. So my manager at the time said they had contacted him about this thing to do Survivor. The first three times I said no. I said no. I said: “Tell them I said no.” But the positioning and the this and the audience … And I said no. But the minute they said there’s an opportunity to play for a charity … And I think that was probably the decider for me. And I said ‘alright, if there’s an opportunity then to give back, then I will do it’.
R: What charity did you choose?
P: My grandmother helped me pick a charity in Kimberley. You see, for me it always has to be Kimberley. I have to be giving back. So we picked a children’s home and they told me they just want enough to build a jungle gym. And then that became my mission. Then I accepted the challenge and went on to do Survivor. Did very well, as a matter of fact I came third. I was the last standing male and I was then able to give these funds to the charity in Kimberley and for me that was the motivator. And since then I try and do a lot of those. I try and whenever there’s an opportunity to do for others using what I love anyway, I do it. So Kilimanjaro and Nelson Mandela Children’s Foundation. You know, all of those. All speak to the same innate desire to give back.
R: And now you’re also producing. What’s the difference between working for someone else, and you get a job card kind of thing and you have to show up and do it and having to make the decisions and pay the bills and all of that?
P: So I now co-own the company Seek Entertainment and we produce SA Idols and Miss SA and Face of Africa and a few other productions, and the difference is it’s a lot harder.
R: Ja, the responsibility is just …
P: 100%. As a presenter, you just have to think about your links and lines and the right camera and which way to look and the lighting and all the others, but as a producer you have to think about the business, you have to think about sustaining the business. Now, you have to think about … Because you employ people, both on freelance and full time basis, you have to think about the budgets, you have to think about the marketing, create more business … So it’s a whole different ballgame, but it’s also very fulfilling for me, because I think the lifespan of an entertainer, or the guy in front is substantially shorter, and if you’re going to think long term and longevity, you have to think beyond trying to be the star at all times. Not to mention it’s a great opportunity to empower others as well. I love seeing youngsters graduate, giving them an opportunity and seeing them thrive and blossom and they go on and do their own thing as well, so I love that element as well.
R: And on a more personal note, you were married for more than 10 years and there was a very public divorce … How do you work with the loss of anonymity?
P: Look, I think that’s the price we pay for the industry that we’re in. Naturally you try and protect your family as much as you can, but since learning that you’re forfeited or … I try and really protect my kids as much as I can. That’s the very best I can do. I think my life, too much of it is out there, I cannot be sociable without being seen, I cannot take my face off and put it away and go have a party and come back. I am who I am and it comes with it. But it’s also nice … You sort of learn to be disciplined, you learn to watch what you say, watch what you do and constantly think about … Because my brand is my bread and butter and I have to protect it at all times. Obviously things happen, challenges happen. But even still – it’s not the challenge that happens to you, but how you deal with it and how you come out of it on the other side.
R: How did the kids change you?
P: I’m going to get a bit emotional. The kids are the best thing to have possibly happened to me. I’ve got two incredible kids and they still amaze me every single day with just who they are and I almost wonder how it is that they’re my children, because they are so incredible. So my kids change the way I think about every single thing. Now … It used to be about day to day. But because of them you have to think long term. You have to think for them. The decisions you make impact then, so what are you doing to protect them and their future, and also to leave the right kind of legacy and example for them. Because they’re watching, they see. They’re not unaware of what you’re doing on a daily basis.
R: How old are they now?
P: My little girl is 10, and my boy is seven. Ja.
R: And over the whole … It was Women’s Month and people talked about it time and again. So many fathers are missing in action, so many kids grow up without fathers. What is your message to fathers, to men who have children?
P: You know, Ruda, I’m going to have to be honest with you. The reason I am not fond of taking those kind of self-righteous stances and making those kind of statements is because everyone’s situation is unique. And until you know what the situation is there, then I think I’d rather not make a self-righteous statement. Having said that, I can only speak for myself, and say my kids give me the kind of fulfilment that no other thing can. As somebody who grew up with my grandmother and my mom, and my dad was visible and present in my life, I know the value of having the support of both parents. So my challenge would then be to say perhaps be a bit more selfless, and think of life from your children’s point of view and behave accordingly.
R: And just on a completely practical note, tell me about your home? Where do you live, what does it look like? How did you choose it?
P: I’m settled in Jozi now, that’s kind of where I’ve found my rhythm, but I still consider Kimberley my home.
R: Which part of Jozi?
P: I live in the West side of it. When I was sort-of buying property now, my best friend’s dad actually advised me and influenced how I came to the decision. He was talking about how living standards are going to be better in the West and he spoke about all the developing and the developments and therefore from an investment point of view it makes sense and blah, blah, blah. And also I believe I work in the madness, so I don’t want to live in the madness as well. I like to be on the outskirts of it. That’s how I settled on the West.
R: And how do you make the empty space your home? What do you take? How do you fit it out? Kit it out?
P: Oh look, my house isn’t necessarily very fancy. For me I’m not one who collects things. I attach no real value to things, but for me it’s just trying creating a loving home for my children. So if you look at my home, it’s designed more for them. I have a big pool and a big jungle gym and a big trampoline and … So it’s very much centered around my children and creating a haven for them.
R: And do you have a studio there?
P: I used to have a studio, not so much anymore. I’m kind of going to move soon, to another place. You see, I have a …
R: So you’re a bit in transit?
P: I’m a little bit in transit and in the new place I’m definitely going to.
R: And plans for your life? Whatever part?
P: Look, I don’t think I will change path instead of what I have chosen. The only thing I maybe hope to change is to develop myself more, so in other words in television I want to grow my production company, empower more youngsters to get into the business, and also maybe export some more of what we’re doing, so maybe look into doing some productions outside the country, on the continent, perhaps abroad as well. With the music, similar kind of thinking. My aspirations are perhaps to start some sort of … Look, I’m not fond of the word “record company”, but some sort of label where you put on aspiring artists and give them an opportunity as well. Obviously radio is another big passion of mine. I see online radio is kind of the trend, so my thinking is also around that space. It’s just to take what I’m doing currently and to change the scale at which I’m doing it.
R: All of the very, very best.
P: Thank you so much.
R: I’m sure you’ll go very far.
P: Thank you so much.
R: Thank you for being with us. Till next time, goodbye.
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