Arno Carstens, by his own admission, wasn’t terribly good at his job. He was an apprentice litho printer, a solid and respectable career for a student with a fondness for the graphic arts.
He tried his hand at waitering too, and proved equally inept at that. Happily for the young man from Worcester in the Western Cape, there was a field of endeavour in which he rocked. Rock ’n Roll.
He was good enough on the microphone to earn his Springbok colours, which happened when the name of his band came to him in a dream: The Springbok Nude Girls.
With their unique blend of punk, rock, acid jazz, pop, and heavy metal, the band made their quirky name as an award-winning quintet, reaching their peak of fame as the opening act for U2 in Cape Town.
Then, in 2001, they split, leaving Arno to embark on an eclectic and successful solo career. Still juggling projects, restless and questing as ever, still a “Nudie” in heart and soul, Arno took time off to chat with me about the ups and downs of the rock ’n Roll life, the joys of fatherhood, and his quiet off-stage sideline as a modern art painter.
R: Hello, and a very warm welcome once again to the Change Exchange. My guest, I think, needs very little introduction, Arno Carstens, and I have to actually have it in front of me because I can’t remember it all, 12 albums, five with Springbok Nude Girls, one as part of the Electronica Project, maybe I must ask you about that, six as a solo artist, five SAMAs… Het jy dit almal op jou muur?
A: The SAMAs, no, I’ve got like two SAMAs at my house and the rest of them are all scattered around some of the guys from the Springbok Nude Girls and a lawyer has got one …
R: In hoc. [Laughter]
A: Yes, so they’re all scattered around South Africa.
R: And then you’ve performed with the Rolling Stones, REM, et cetera, et cetera. You grew up in Worcester, the youngest of four boys.
A: Yes, with the youngest, I’m the youngest of four boys, in the Winelands, Worcester, yes.
R: And you were the odd one out?
A: I think every child is the odd one out, but I think most of my brothers were quite good at sport and stuff like that. I was not good at sport, I think I had a thing for art and for, ja, all forms of art.
R: And what did you want to be, what was the dream – not a fireman?
A: No, no, no, oh, well, I wanted to be an archaeologist or a scientist of some sorts, but then eventually, of course, then I found out I’m not so strong academically, and then my mom, and also I wasn’t good at sport, so my mom said maybe I must try and learn how to play the guitar, I think that was in Standard 5, so, and from, and I was mad about music, I loved music and I used to do a lot of choir-singing and then I realised that in a way I can write better songs that what I thought was on radio, so that really boosted, it like boosted my confidence in the writing section …
R: How old were you when…? How old were you when you had that insight?
A: 15, 14, ja.
R: And you really believed from that day that you, I can do this?
A: Yes, because I, you know, for me growing up with three brothers, I went individually through their teenage years, so for me at the beginning of Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin, and then the “new wave” era, then the Bob Marley era and the Doors, going through all of their, and seeing what joy music brought to them as teenagers, for me, seeing that happening from a distance, I really thought that this was a good thing, a very positive thing for how I think about myself …
R: Did you think you could make a living out of it?
A: Yes, how do you say it, you know, when you’re young, ignorance, through ignorance you don’t really care much, it’s just about the feeling that it brings to you, so for me, I definitely thought I could make a living through it, I didn’t know really what it means to make a living, but you know what I mean.
R: You went to study graphic art but that didn’t really work for you?
A: No, I loved, somewhere in high school I really got into fine arts and then a change happened to me where I really thought, okay, when people asked me what I am I would say I am an artist, so after the army I wanted to go study fine art, but because of my parents, they said, no, there is more money in graphic art, so I tried to …
R: You need something that you can actually make a living out of.
A: Yes, so I tried graphic art but graphic art didn’t work for me somehow, so I left that and did nothing for six months and then I got the opportunity to study Litho machine minding, which is printing, printing of, you know, anything from egg boxes to whatever, so I studied that and I was an apprentice for two and a half years, and then in that two and a half years the Springbok Nude Girls started and we started to make more money through the Springbok Nude Girls than being an apprentice Litho machine minder, so I said goodbye to that job.
R: You kind of moved over. How did that group start? Where did you, how did you get to know each other? How did you start playing together?
A: Well, that was, 1993/1994 was a very magical time in the history of South Africa, you know, President Mandela and the whole thing, and there was a big vibe and we all were living, most of my friends, I was living in Stellenbosch, so it was just a whole bunch of students, so we all met up at the local pub where there was these free, everybody can come and sing and stuff and …
R: Open mic [indistinct].
A: Open mic nights, so that’s the… I met Theo, the guitarist, there and we played some songs and we had a very good response, and from there we had to put a gig together in two weeks, and then I was looking for the rest of the band, and I knew about this band called “Moaning Lisa” and I knew the paces of the drummer were good and we got them, we pulled them in and then we did our first gig, and then the trumpet player came and he said, no, he wants to play with, and that was an interesting thing, it was grunge music, it was quite just heavy rock, there was no trumpet and stuff, so we put the trumpeter in, so that’s what gave us the original sound, I think, plus the name, people loved the name, of course.
R: Where did the first gig come from and where did the name come from?
A: Well, the first gig was in Upstairs in Stellenbosch, a pub, and then the name I dreamt up …
R: But why did they hire you if you never played before?
A: Well, because of those open nights the people really liked us.
R: So they said put something together and …
A: Yes, come play here in two weeks’ time, put a band together and something, so it was a very fluent evolution.
R: And the name?
A: The name I just, I dreamt up, I was between sleep and awake and I heard the DJ saying, “And tomorrow night the Springbok Nude Girls will be appearing live at the,” and then I woke up and I quickly wrote down the name, and we were looking for names, so I suggested the name and then somebody in the band said, “But we’re all guys, there’s no girls,” and I said, “Yes, but it’s brilliant!” So, once again, you know, ignorance and youth, it’s a brave and wonderful thing.
R: How old were you?
A: I think, sjoe, I don’t remember, I think 24, 25, 24. R: You have always believed that the name was part of the, what actually made it happen in the beginning, because it was so special and so different?
A: Yes, and I think, you know, having a cool name has got to do with the years of growing up listening to the “Voëlvry-Beweging”, Johannes Kerkorrel, Koos Kombuis, it’s like all these like cool names, so, of course, when it was our time, which was just after the “Voëlvry‑Beweging”, I thought the band has got to have a good name, otherwise it’s, otherwise… the Beatles is not good enough as a name – I will be crucified for that one, of course.
R: [Laughter] What was it like when you could let go of a salary because you were earning enough from gigs?
A: That was wonderful because I was not made for a nine-to-five, working nine-to-five, you know, that didn’t work for me. I remember I used to, on Thursdays I used to get really happy and then on Friday nights I used to get kind of sad, and Saturdays I was really depressed because Sunday is a day before Monday, so that’s the way I experienced, you know, I wasn’t really, I wasn’t a good printer, I mean, I used to be a waiter as well, I was a terrible waiter as well, so I was, the only thing I can do is something to do with the art world.
R: What is it like walking onto the stage and you have your audience and you feel them responding?
A: Well, if they respond to something and things are going well, then wonderful. Not every day you’re in the mood for, you know, you get your good nights and your bad nights, and stuff like that, but you might walk onto the stage not knowing how that night is gonna go, but then suddenly after that first song you turn into a different person and then it’s just an incredible experience.
R: Why did you start in English?
A: Because we grew up listening to English music, like I say, Led Zeppelin, all these bands, all these bands, everything was English. I know in the ‘80s, the later part of the ‘80’s I got into the “Voëlvry-Beweging”, but other than that, for me the music I was listening to was Sonic Youth, Nick Cave, so by the time that we started making music we wanted to make music that we were listening to, also there was this vibe that for once we were not banned as South Africans, and we wanted to be part of the world kind of thing and wanted the world to hear our voices as well, so therefore the only way to do it is to sing in English and to be part of the world, and also, every generation does their own thing, I believe the “Voëlvry‑Beweging” did, had a wonderful thing going there in this Afrikaans/semi-English thing that they were doing, and for our generation it was quite full-on rock, being part of the world …
R: International.
A: Yes, and then, of course, after us, when we left the scene the new, the new generation came up with Fokofpolisiekar and those guys, who brought something new, more of a hard core Afrikaans rock, you know, so every generation has got their own little thing.
R: Why did you not break into the international scene? You’ve said that you would have to actually go there, be there.
A: Ja. Well, okay, so the way I see it is, in South Africa we grew up listening to half American music, half UK music, so the music that we were making were, there was quite a lot of British influence mixed with rock, American influence. When we would do shows in, for instance, New York, or whatever, the people will say, “They sound too British,” when we did shows in, “the powers that be”, you know what I mean, the record companies, and when we did shows in the UK they said we sound too American, so we were just not fitting into the whole scene …
R: Too mid-Atlantic. [Laughter]
A: Ja. There is an Afrikaans saying for what we [indistinct]
R: Yes. [Laughter]
A: So one leg in Africa, one leg there, you know, that’s the way it goes. So that’s why I think one of the things that we didn’t totally slot into the thing, but then also eventually there was a chance for us to move to, to move to New York, just pack up and go, but then one of the guys already had a child and wife, so that was not worth it, and it was at the end of seven years of quite a lot of success in South Africa, but then you hit the ceiling and there is nowhere to go, so it was either we move or we don’t move, but by that stage as well, being 27 or 28, I think we also thought we were too old, and in the world of entertainment, in pop/rock music, actually you should leave the country or you should be in America or in the UK from say 23 or even earlier.
R: And what did it mean for you, emotionally and personally, when the band broke up? Did you ever think this is the end, I’m going to stop playing?
A: Uhm… at first I thought this is just a mild hiccup kind of thing, everything is gonna go on, I must just get my groove, you know, get my own personal groove going and things will go on naturally, but then suddenly the record company, there was no more record company, the phone stopped ringing and everything, and I absolutely gave up on the notion of actually being in the music industry, so there was a big change …
R: What did that do to you?
A: Well, number one, there is a lot of disappointment, kind of resentment, disappointment, but then there is something of you feel liberated, you know, you get it behind you, and so then I started writing an album in my bedroom with no expectations or anything, and that’s when I wrote “Another Universe”, that album, and I got private, I got private investors to help me make the album, again, when the single came out, “Another Universe”, there was no interest from radio or from record companies or anybody, and then somehow Volkswagen put the song on one of their ads and it all blew up, and then the record companies started phoning me and everything started happening again, so, ja, and then suddenly I was part of the big machine again, which was wonderful.
R: Looking at that, at that music video of “Another Universe”, it looks as if you’re sending yourself up. Were you just having fun, playing?
A: Uhm… ja, it’s a kind of, and you know what, videos in those days, our videos were terrible, I don’t know what to say, you know. There is a thing that they say, actually one of the, M-Net didn’t want to play that video because they thought the girls in the video were transvestites, and we are just, “No, they’re not transvestites, they’re real woman,” [laughter], but anyway, no, I mean, ja…
R: And about “Another Universe”, you said you were singing directly towards South Africans, you were saying, “We’re not living in the West, we’re not coming from the East.” What was that about?
A: Because we are unique as a culture, as a country …
R: So were you aware of that, was that part of your thinking process as you were writing the song?
A: As the song develop there is certain lines that come up and then you go, well, ja, that’s true, we’re not living in the West, we’re not living in the East, and then, you know; still today, I mean, they sacrifice cows and stuff, so, and it’s an old Biblical thing where you sacrifice the holy goat, and it’s just interesting stuff. I love creating interesting mental projections and images, and I think the song is riddled with it.
R: And the decision to then start writing in Afrikaans again, where did that come from?
A: Well, I got the, Sony Music and Select Music last year or the year before gave me the opportunity to do an Afrikaans album, and then also after so many English albums I thought it was time for a change, it’s not exactly, you know, the last two albums weren’t flying off, weren’t big sellers and something, so I thought it’s maybe time to make a bit of a change, and of course it was inevitable that I was gonna do an Afrikaans album, but …
R: Why?
A: Because I am Afrikaans so I was gonna do it one day, but I didn’t know when.
R: But you had resisted it for 20 years.
A: Aag, it’s because I had a bee in my bonnet, I was always after the one album I will start writing the next album, that’s how it works, I mean, you keep yourself busy, so, but, you know, I had the opportunity to do something different and I took it, and the first two songs I wrote, it was a bit shaky writing in Afrikaans but then suddenly I got into the groove and it was an absolutely wonderful experience to do it and I am definitely gonna do many more Afrikaans albums. Suddenly it feels, for me, at the moment, it feels like music, there’s a change, the music is, writing in Afrikaans, it feels all brand new to me again, you know, so I love doing it, and what I’ve also now discovered now that I am writing, I am sort of writing a Nude Girl album, writing in English is actually very difficult because everything is being said in English, you know what I mean, there is so many, English these days is just riddled with one-liners and clichés, so now writing in Afrikaans, now I feel like I’ve got to dig a little bit deeper to write something really good in English.
R: And you went back to the house where you grew up in in Worcester to write, well, during the time that you were writing the Afrikaans lyrics. How did that work in your head?
A: Well, a friend of mine told me that I must write about all the places that I visited in South Africa and stuff, you know, how I grew up with all my friends and blah-blah-blah, so I did that, I wrote Calvinia, Cape Town, Joburg, Pretoria, and then I would write in poetry form the things that I remember and things that stood out in my life, so then, of course, going back to Worcester and writing a whole bunch of songs there was quite a natural progression and it was a very interesting, an interesting experience, it was a couple of months after my dad passed away so and I was actually sitting on his bed, in the bedroom writing a whole lot of songs, so there was a kind of interesting magic about it, and I think you can hear it in the album.
R: And you called it, wat, “13 Aandblom”?
A: Ja, “Die Aandblom 13” …
R: “Die Aandblom 13”.
A: Because I grew up in Aandblomstraat 13, so, ja.
R: And it’s quite beautiful. Do you listen to it? [Laughter]
A: Dankie Ruda.
R: Also last year the Springbok Nude Girls, you’ve actually performed together again, there was a “docy”, so is this now just one strand in your professional life?
A: Well, I think five years or six years after the Nude Girls broke up, which I must just tell to young bands out there, ever break up, just take a break and keep quiet, you know what I mean …
R: [Laughter] Don’t say anything.
A: Don’t say anything, it’s useless. So you always get back together again, I mean, after five or six years we really missed doing the material and doing the songs again and just, the Springbok Nude Girls is a total different vibe to what my shows is, the Springbok Nude Girls is like a lot of energy and it’s loud and it’s a total different show …
R: It’s much noisier.
A: Yes, and a part of me absolutely love it, so we missed it. So we got back together again, did an album, “PeaceBreaker”, and from thereon we do like, say three or four shows a year, we don’t play as much as we used to but if people come to us and they’ve got a great show, then we go and do some shows, and then we had, the documentary came out and there is talk about maybe doing another album this year, but everybody is so busy that we don’t know if we’re gonna pull it off, but now, of course, in a couple of months we’ll be playing with Pixies, who is one of my favourite bands in the world and influenced me tremendously, so it’s a great honour so we’re definitely gonna do that gig and, you know, let’s see what happens with the Nude Girls.
R: But how fantastic that you are all too busy to do something extra?
A: Yes, and stubborn.
R: [Laughter] What does that mean?
A: Well, you know what, that is the difference between being in a band and being solo, you know; solo you just make the decision and it happens, where a band, you’ve got to have a meeting and everybody, it’s five people with, we’ve all got our own opinions and stuff, and it’s like a bunch of old woman, basically …
R: [Laughter] Come on!
A: No, no, no… [Laughter] But you’re young, so… we’re just a bunch of old ladies, actually.
R: And the painting, tell me about that?
A: Oe, the painting. The painting is supposed to be my hobby but now my wife tells me we’ve got to do another exhibition this year, so that’s when I, that’s when it goes like, “But it’s my hobby,” so now the pressure is on, but I absolutely love it but, you know, creating artwork is a small form, well, no, it’s a bigger form of writing a song; a song is three minutes but it can take you two weeks to write, but a painting, it’s a scary thing because for me it feels like seventy percent of the process is really scary because the painting looks terrible, but it’s that last thirty percent when it all comes together, that’s where the joy starts happening, so …
R: So you have to trust the process.
A: Yes, you trust the process and, you know, it’s a lot of thinking and stuff, but it’s all about, you know, self, learning to… what do you say?
R: Self-expression?
A: Yes, the whole thing about creating art or doing paintings and stuff is learning to know yourself in a very weird way… interesting. You should do that.
R: Oe, heavens, no, I couldn’t. So tell me more about that, what have you realised about yourself standing in front of a painting?
A: Well, okay, for instance, like life is basically a long, a big, it’s a big painting, and I find that growing older is so much easier and better, the last part of your life, because then you can indulge in things that you really know, that you like, where in your 20s and 30s it’s, and you spend a lot of your time actually doing what other people, what you think other people think you should be doing, you know what I mean, so doing a painting and writing songs, it’s all part of the same procedure of life in itself.
R: You said that you smoked your last pot on your 30th birthday?
A: Yes, now, I thought so …
R: Are you still happy with that [indistinct]? [Laughter]
A: But now they have legalised it in America, so I am waiting for them to legalise it in South Africa because pot is so good for you and you don’t have to smoke it, but, ja…
R: Ja, but Koos Kombuis once said that people think it’s so interesting but actually it’s just boring because you sit there staring at the kitchen wall.
A: Ja… no, no, no, I mean, look, smoking pot, I don’t remember much, and it’s not …
R: Isn’t that the point?
A: It’s not a great thing for writing or creating art. In the beginning you think that it’s a great thing but you are quite slow and you’re not on top of it. I remember I did one show after I smoked a joint and I couldn’t remember the lyrics at all, so…
R: Um, not a good thing.
A: Another tip, guys, don’t smoke and do a show. Which camera? [Laughter]
R: That one if you want to…
A: Sorry, man.
R: Your wife, Melony, is also your manager.
A: Yes.
R: Where did that relationship start and how did you know that this was it, this was serious?
A: I met my wife on a lot of rock-and-roll parties in Camps Bay, Clifton, and we fell in love and, I think it was seven years later and then, or a couple of years later, then we realised we were made for each other and we got married in Zanzibar with 40 good friends, and it was a wonderful experience, and we’re still going strong 10 years later.
R: Wow!
A: Ja, it gets better, like I say, everything gets better with time.
R: I’m going on for 40. [Laughter]
A: Wow! And it gets better?
R: It does, it does.
A: Oh. [Laughter]
R: And now you have a little boy. How old is he?
A: He is turning five this year and he’s incredible, wonderful, his name is Hayden, and he …
R: You almost thought that you wouldn’t have children?
A: Yes, we tried for seven years, we did the in-vitro stuff, but then the story that so many other people share with us, once you give up on the in-vitro thing, that’s when the magic happens, ja.
R: It does. Can you remember holding him for the first time?
A: Yes, I will never forget it, it was incredible, what a weird feeling, I was scared I was gonna break him, ja.
R: Were you there when he was born?
A: Yes, I was there. No, no, no, it’s magic.
R: And he has changed what your attitude to your, your approach to your song-writing as well, slightly? [0:25:05]
A: No.
R: No?
A: No, no, no, I don’t think so, no, he hasn’t changed my attitude towards song-writing …
R: But you’ve said that you need to grow up, that you can’t write the kind of lyrics that you did in 2005.
A: Well, yes, of course, but, you know, my lyrics was never that racy in any way, so it’s …
R: So you were always grown up anyway?
A: No, no, no, look, when you, there is some stupid lines that you have written, but that’s just bad writing, but, I mean, there is a lot of other things that he’s brought back into the family, like a definite love, we don’t fight as much as we used to because you don’t wanna fight around the child, you know what I mean, so there’s a whole vibe of love in the house and a lot of patience, a lot more colour and a lot more, just a lot more beauty and not as much partying going on anymore – more controlled environment, so it’s rustig, it’s wonderful.
R: And tell me something about the house?
A: Well, so we live basically, I call the house the “boat” because from every window you can see the sea, I mean, it’s absolutely, it’s paradise and everything is white. I love the idea of living in a cloud or creating almost my thought of paradys of die hemel, “Die hemel op die platteland,” soos hulle sê, of, you know, to create paradise on earth, so I get, there’s lots of beautiful colours and there are a lot of white and a lot of light.
R: Enjoy your home, may you write beautiful music there and make beautiful paintings …
A: Thank you. Thank you, Ruda.
R: Go well. Until next time, goodbye.
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